Interesting observation on imamother

Barbara

Thu, Jun 25 2015, 9:36 am

boymom wrote:

just noticed something interesting here. was reading two threads one after another and this is what I found:
one thread had someone giving very right winged opinions , to which many posters responded with comments such as "is your rav g-d" "does your rav take over g-d for the day""how can your rav make decisions about your life" etc.
then there was another thread where the poster was given a heter and she was a bit uncomfortable about it. all the comments there were "you must follow what your rav says" "you have a rav for a reason" " your rav knows what he's talking about" "trust your rav"
this has nothing to do with the op's of the thread, but with all the commentators.

I found it very ironic.
do the pple here have emunas chachamim or not? or do they pick and choose when its convenient?( it is possible that both threads had completely different posters so then my question isn't valid, but I highly doubt that that's the case. )
just a thought.... Scratching Head

\

That's a bit disingenuous.

In one case, a woman had a problem doing bedikas; they irritated her. Her rav told her that she need not do them every day. People told her she should follow the advice of her rav.

In the second instance, a poster stated, unequivocally, that anyone who was using birth control was doing the equivalent of committing murder each month, because Hashem unequivocally and without exception, tells us to have as many babies as we physically can, full stop. Your doctor says it will kill you? Hashem knows what you can take, not your doctor. Faced with the fact that rabbis regularly tell women that its OK to take birth control, however, the poster said, oh then its OK. People were asking, well, if its murder, if Hashem always knows best, why can your rabbi second guess that. They were not telling her not to listen to her rabbi, they were telling her that her original premise -- that birth control is murder -- is wrong. And, in fact, that it your rabbi says birth control is ok, then its ok, whether its because you are ill or because you can't handle another baby or because you just don't want one.

And IMNSHO, its rather offensive to take those comments out of context to make some point.

PinkFridge

Thu, Jun 25 2015, 9:53 am

Maya wrote:

You wanted us to encourage and support a poster who called many of us here murderers? Now I see where your hashkafah lies.

I wouldn't and didn't encourage the rhetoric but I do appreciate the Scratching Head

over the posts that lambast people for even asking bc questions. Even if there are very RW rabbanim who will say, at this point you can make the decision yourself - and there are such rabbanim - there are many people who feel that that question does need to be asked initially. Now at the same time I can appreciate that in some circles rabbanim and mesorah will guide differently and say, here are some basic halachic principles as far as bc preference goes, it's your choice from day 1. If I can respect this latter approach, I think others can respect the former approach.

Notsobusy

Thu, Jun 25 2015, 10:10 am

Barbara wrote:

Exactly what Barbara wrote. They weren't saying not to listen to a rav, they were saying that she has to make up her mind, do you leave family planning totally up to Hashem or can you listen to a rav and go on birth control.

Barbara

Thu, Jun 25 2015, 10:42 am

milkshake wrote:

I recently noticed on two threads going on at the same time how on one a poster repeatedly claimed that what people were saying (in regard to tznius not being about attracting men wrongly) how it couldn't be so because she "never ever learnt it that way" and on another thread (whether hair covering is or isn't halachically required) the same poster reiterated that just because "some people never learnt it doesn't mean it can't be so".
So yeah, people can change their opinions to suit them.

Again, disingenuous.

In the hair covering discussion, the point being made is that there are valid, minority opinions out there, and the fact that they aren't being taught at right wing schools doesn't change that fact.

The tzniut discussion revolved around WHEN certain arguments were brought to bear on the matter. So saying, "there was no discussion of that in the 1960s" or whenever IS relevant.

milkshake

Thu, Jun 25 2015, 10:59 am

Barbara wrote:

No. This poster's point in one discussion was that SHE NEVER HEARD of one opinion. Ergo it must not be based on fact or daas torah or whatever. However when other posters claimed they never heard of something she held by, she sang a different song.

PinkFridge

Thu, Jun 25 2015, 11:39 am

Iymnok wrote:

As beautiful as these children may be Hashem gave us free will and being responsible with regards to fertility is included.

Leaving aside rape, r"l, and the whole manslaughter thing, here's a point I should have made in my earlier post, and that I think may be at the crux of OP's bemusement. There are halachic aspects to the choice to use bc, specifically, which one to use. Condoms are generally accepted to be problematic. Some authorities may feel that other forms are abortifacients (and I'm not going anywhere the manslaughter talk) so should not be first choices unless the others won't work. This too is halachic and should be respected.
So why is it such a leap to think that if a couple has a working relationship with a rav, that they would discuss the choice with him? It is very possible the rav will say that he doesn't pasken in these areas, call Rav X whom the couple doesn't know, but whose views they can be mekabel.
Can this not be respected as a legitimate approach to bc?
On Imamother?

sweetpotato

Thu, Jun 25 2015, 11:44 am

There is a big difference between the two threads. The bedikos thread was talking about a specific halachic scenario and asking a specific shaila. Commenters were encouraging the OP to accept the psak of her rav. That's all.

The family planning thread was more theoretical, where it was asked whether other people shared the hashkafic worldview or belief system that family planning of any kind is wrong and that Hashem gives each person the number of children she's able to handle, and that doing anything to potentially alter that is wrong.

Commenters were asking "well, what if a person's rav says to go on bc for xyz reason," to which the poster responded to the effect of "well then that is fine, because then the person is following their rav."

Logically, that answer doesn't make sense in the context of holding such a sweeping belief as "Hashem has a predestined no. of children he wants me to have, and if I take any action that changes that, I'm doing something wrong." Because that would imply that the rav somehow has nevuah or a direct connection to Hashem to be able to intercede with his plans.

Commenters weren't at all taking issue with the notion of consulting daas Torah on birth control matters. They were taking issue with the idea that it's a Jewish ideal to be completely passive about fertility.

The thread has been locked, but as other commenters have rightly pointed out, this hashkafa makes no sense in Judaism the way OP stated it (no family planning, because Hashem will give each person the number of kids she can handle, naturally.)

To say you have a hashkafa of not doing any family planning whatsoever has two possible implications:

1. It's a Jewish ideal to have as many children as physically possible, and birth control for any reason other than medical necessity is basically assur.
--Or--
2. We're not supposed to meddle in the natural order of our fertility

A lot of Jews *do* believe in option 1, as a valid understanding of p'ru v'urvu. But, the issue is then saying "Hashem will give each person the number of children she can handle," because that makes no sense within logic. Some women, without using bc, will have 15+ children. Some women will only have 2, or 1, or 0. Does that mean that Hashem think that every woman who has 15 kids is capable of handling 15 kids? Reality tells us otherwise. And, conversely, a woman is infertile (or is married to a man who is infertile) because Hashem deemed her incapable of handling any children whatsoever? What about the woman who has a smaller number of kids than she truly desires-- she should feel certain that Hashem deemed her incapable of caring for more? Again, reality tells us otherwise. So you can say it's a mitzvah to have as many children as possible, but you can't say this mitzvah exists because Hashem will only give us the number of children we can handle, one way or another.

Option 2 doesn't make sense because if you think it's a Jewish ideal to not meddle with the natural order of fertility, then fertility treatments would be wrong as well. This *is* a tenant of the Catholic Church, and they are very consistent in their official beliefs (artificial birth control is wrong, but so are fertility treatments.)

happybeingamom

Thu, Jun 25 2015, 11:49 am

PinkFridge wrote:

I don't think that was the issue, the issue was saying using birth control is like murder. I think that is what people were outraged by.

happybeingamom

Thu, Jun 25 2015, 12:01 pm

PinkFridge wrote:

I'm not going to go back and quote and parse. There is the very specific manslaughter angle, and the global issue of bc. I've definitely heard disparagement and condescension re the latter. It gets ugly. Teary Eyed

I agree that many times there have been posts like that. I have a large family so if I wanted to I can be miffed but I look at emunah, bitachon, achrayos very different then many here but being confident in my belief is what is important not their opinion.

I have tried on the threads where large families are stereotyped to explain that the stereotypes are not true but many don't want to see the other side. At this point in time I just say so be it, you have your opinion I have mine, Zei Gezunt Un Shtark. This issue has so much to do with culture more then reality and many people think their culture is right.

Barbara

Thu, Jun 25 2015, 12:09 pm

PinkFridge wrote:

The ONLY thing that was being discussed on that thread was the accusation that the use of birth control is the halachic equivalent of murder. If you're crying over that thread, then apparently you believe that.

As to the other, yes, there have been discussions in which women have stated that they and their husbands are capable of learning sufficiently to make a determination as to whether birth control is halachically appropriate. Those women are routinely attacked. The only times I've seen it the other way around is when some woman is denied, or afraid she will be denied, birth control, when she feels that she really cannot handle a baby.

Barbara

Thu, Jun 25 2015, 12:12 pm

happybeingamom wrote:

And just to make my point clear, I think that stereotyping or attacking large families is dead wrong.

Being allowed to use birth control and being required to do so are wholly different things.