Interesting observation on imamother

Barbara

Thu, Jun 25 2015, 9:30 am

happybeingamom wrote:

Barbara, I have always found you fair on that subject, so I hope you don't think I was accusing you. Actually I wasn't thinking of any individual just the tone of those threads

No no, not at all.

I just want to make clear that I agree, attacking large families is wrong.

Many large families are wonderful. I am in awe of parents who can do exactly the right thing for a large number of very different children, while I struggle and miss with just one.

Some large families are dysfunctional. So are some small families.

People should do what's right for them, not for the guy down the street.

And that includes talking to rabbis about BC. Do I think its necessary? No. And my rabbi would think I'm nuts if I asked him. Do I understand it? Not really. I just don't get why doing something is wrong because its not OK'ed by a rabbi, when it would be perfectly fine if you asked. But if people believe in it, go right ahead. Just find a rabbi who understands that there are physical and emotional issues that mean that a family is not ready or able to add another member.

happybeingamom

Thu, Jun 25 2015, 9:38 am

Barbara wrote:

You know this is such an individual subject for each couple, based on so many factors. It is really a MYOB issue.

I do of course understand the frustrations when a poster vents that she does not feel her Rav understands her. There is no clear cut advice to her vent because different Rabbonim respond differently because of their different personality and hachick perspective. The only advice I can give is that a couple need to find a Rav of their mesorah that they can communicate effectively with. Easier said then done of course, especially for a young couple as they navigate these new experiences.

Laiya

Thu, Jun 25 2015, 9:38 am

boymom wrote:

just noticed something interesting here. was reading two threads one after another and this is what I found:
one thread had someone giving very right winged opinions , to which many posters responded with comments such as "is your rav g-d" "does your rav take over g-d for the day""how can your rav make decisions about your life" etc.
then there was another thread where the poster was given a heter and she was a bit uncomfortable about it. all the comments there were "you must follow what your rav says" "you have a rav for a reason" " your rav knows what he's talking about" "trust your rav"
this has nothing to do with the op's of the thread, but with all the commentators.

I found it very ironic.
do the pple here have emunas chachamim or not? or do they pick and choose when its convenient?( it is possible that both threads had completely different posters so then my question isn't valid, but I highly doubt that that's the case. )
just a thought.... Scratching Head

Being religious Jews means that our behavior should comport with halacha, as it is explained and interpreted by our rabbanim. Hashkafah is a philosophical framework that gives context to the reasons for halacha.

So, if we have a halchaic shaila: Am I obligated to have another child? or, Am I permitted to use bc? we can ask a Rav, who is well-versed in these laws, to give a ruling. Or, you can ask a rav to explain his philosophical outlook, if you respect him, and make your own decision based on that, if there is no halachic issue involved.

That is not what the poster from the other thread was saying. Her position was, there IS NO halachic issue. A woman is obligated to have as many children as she possibly can, period. (Of course, this is not the halacha.) And don’t be mad at G-d, because He knows what He’s doing. But, if she really needs a “way out”, a rav can give her the way out.

That struck many readers as though she were saying, the Rav knows better than G-d what’s best for her.

The final action—asking a rav what to do—may be the same, but the premise is completely different. In one case, she’s asking him for a ruling on Jewish law, and in another, she’s asking him if he knows what’s “best” for her personal life, which implies that Hashem clearly doesn’t (ch”vsh). I’m sure you can see how this reasoning can make frum readers uncomfortable.

Halacha does NOT say that a woman who uses bc is akin to a murderer. Extrapolating this from a non-halachic source, which doesn't say that either (is the original cite for saying when all the souls are born moshiach will come, is kabbalistic? midrashic/aggadic?), seems to me a start down the slippery slope of “lo sosif” (not adding our own mitzvos onto the Torah), which happens to be a d’orayisa.

I happen to think this is one example of a problem that is endemic in many of our communities--people get confused between halacha, hashkafah, and often chumra and minhag, as well.

The danger is that this can leave people with a warped sense of what Judaism actually is, imo.

sourstix

Thu, Jun 25 2015, 4:20 pm

the reason I ask when it comes to bc. is because according to the torah its really not allowed. obviously there are scenrios that say, you need to make an acception. illness,etc.. there is a famous story told about rav wozner tz'l. of a woman who called to tell him that she has a family of children and she feels very overwhelmed she wants a heter for bc. and she gave him the circumstances. he replied he would think about it and she should call him in 2 days. and she did and he explained that he unfortunately cant give here aheter. a short while later she got pregnant and had a child. fastforward 2 yrs later. the family went on an outing and left the youngest one by the grandparents as he was too young for that type of stuff. on the way there the family they had and accident and all passed away r'l. (this happened in israel a couple of years ago) now there is someone left of the family and someone that can say kadish. its heartbreaking. I know, but it was a lesson for me that we need to follow the torah and listen to what our gedolim pasken. and to never say they dont know what they are talking about. hashem has his plans. we dont know what they are. and a rav is the one to say what should be done. thats the hishtadlus we can do. and believe that we are the carriers of future am yisroel. and that its the most difficult job.

zaq

Thu, Jun 25 2015, 6:04 pm

boymom wrote:

because I find that majority of the posters here all have similar opinions in yiddishkeit issues.... why do I say so? because during any controversial threads, check the "likes" on each post. then you'll understand why im saying it. only certain types of posts get liked 57 times.... but im not going into that now cuz its another conversation completely.

57 "likes" on a forum with--what?--over 2000 members?--is hardly indicative that the majority hold the same opinion.

It's not even necessarily indicative that those 57 people hold the same opinion. The more "likes" a post has, the more likely people will be to "like" it, too, [I]even if they are neutral or mildly disagree/I], especially if they admire the person who posted. This is not Zenobia Zaqarias talking, this is from an article I read about studies done on the topic. I would have made a note of the title and the publication it was in had I had any notion of wanting to retrieve this info at some point, but at the time it was just "huh! That's interesting. Human behavior sure is strange."

joy613

Thu, Jun 25 2015, 6:29 pm

sourstix wrote:

Oy.
I think you posted this story (or someone else did) a few years ago on this site. And I think I responded then too.
This story is proof of what? It's showing exactly the opposite of what you are trying to prove.

To me it shows clearly that they shouldn't have had that kid and they should have been on bc. What's so good about being the only child left in your family? That is so sad and nebach for the kid. I think all would have been better had they not had that kid and they all perished. So there'll be no one to say kaddish, maybe a relative could have done that. AT least there wouldn't be an orphan child who has to suffer for the rest of his life.

GreenEyes26

Thu, Jun 25 2015, 6:47 pm

sourstix wrote:

Your first sentence is incorrect. Fact.

And this is the saddest, most twisted story I ever heard. This proves nothing except that certain sects of Jews find horrible, depressing, and manipulative stories inspirational.

boymom

Thu, Jun 25 2015, 7:23 pm

Barbara wrote:

\

That's a bit disingenuous.

In one case, a woman had a problem doing bedikas; they irritated her. Her rav told her that she need not do them every day. People told her she should follow the advice of her rav.

In the second instance, a poster stated, unequivocally, that anyone who was using birth control was doing the equivalent of committing murder each month, because Hashem unequivocally and without exception, tells us to have as many babies as we physically can, full stop. Your doctor says it will kill you? Hashem knows what you can take, not your doctor. Faced with the fact that rabbis regularly tell women that its OK to take birth control, however, the poster said, oh then its OK. People were asking, well, if its murder, if Hashem always knows best, why can your rabbi second guess that. They were not telling her not to listen to her rabbi, they were telling her that her original premise -- that birth control is murder -- is wrong. And, in fact, that it your rabbi says birth control is ok, then its ok, whether its because you are ill or because you can't handle another baby or because you just don't want one.

And IMNSHO, its rather offensive to take those comments out of context to make some point.

im responding to the bold line in your post.
did you read through the whole thread? I did. and YES! there were quite a few comments mocking das torah. (there were also comments against what she said about the murder case) but my post was referring specifically to the comments that followed her post: "does your rav have nevuah?" does he have a direct line to g-d?" she said what she learned and then said that a rav can give you a heter if necessary. why does that have to be followed with comments like "can your rav take over g-d for the day?" its common knowledge that rabbanim are able to give heterim for many things. if bc is not something you even have to ask about , then obviously you decide on your own. but if for her its a matter of halachah, then of course she should ask and of course her rav can decide. what else does das torah mean? why all these dumb questions like "how can your rav suddenly let u use bc....? how can he interfere with g-ds plan?
go back and read thru the thread.

relish

Thu, Jun 25 2015, 7:35 pm

Hashem loves me wrote:

It's interesting that we all have different view points. To me, this story shows the value of one life. This child, who may have never been concieved, was given the responsibility of carrying on his family's legacy. A person gets a zchus for every mitzva that their offspring perform. Had the family not had this child, they would have lost out tremendously-forever.
Yes, the child may have it hard growing up. I wonder what he would say if he were asked whether or not he prefered to be born. I wonder if he views himself as nebach. I wonder if he is actually grateful for his existence.

boymom

Thu, Jun 25 2015, 7:46 pm

Laiya wrote:

That is not what the poster from the other thread was saying. Her position was, there IS NO halachic issue. A woman is obligated to have as many children as she possibly can, period. (Of course, this is not the halacha.) And don’t be mad at G-d, because He knows what He’s doing. But, if she really needs a “way out”, a rav can give her the way out.

That struck many readers as though she were saying, the Rav knows better than G-d what’s best for her.

.

for arguments sake, lets say that it says outright in the torah that bc is assur and then it says that if theres a matter of illness or some other major problem, then there's room for heterim . ok? got it? what do you do then? I would do the same thing that I do when I need a heter to call my doula on Shabbos. I mean- to use a phone is completely assur on Shabbos! how can a rav just decide that because I need a doula then I can call her??? can I say my rav knows better than g-d and he can let me use the phone. we don't say that. we use the phone on Shabbos cuz we asked a rav and he paskened.
so , based on the theory that bc is halachah toras moshe misinai- you can ask your rav, and YES, your rav can "interfere" with g-ds plans. he's not taking over g-d nor does he think he knows better than g-d.you know what he is? he's g-ds gift to Judaism. g-d put him on this world so that he can help us make halachic decisions that we can't make ourselves. without rabbanim, yiddishkeit would long be forgotten. where does the gemorah come from? its only because the rabbanim had the forsight to write it all down, lest it all be forgotten. without gemorah, there isn't torah.
so yes, halacha (whatever that is) can be "changed" for the moment by a competent rabbi.
btw, just a little story: someone came to rebbe and asked for a heter. rebbe said- if it would be halachah then I'd be able to work around it and give you a heter. but because its a minhag your talking about- I can't mess with minhagim.
point is - if you believe in rabbanim- they CAN interfere with halacha. yes they can.
can a rav make a mistake? I assume so. he is human. if he botched someone up, I feel for you, and maybe he wasn't qualified to be a rav, or just erred like me and you.

boymom

Thu, Jun 25 2015, 8:04 pm

Maya wrote:

You wanted us to encourage and support a poster who called many of us here murderers? Now I see where your hashkafah lies.

wasn't implying that at all. sorry if that's what you thought.
was SHE calling you a murderer? no. she was repeating what she learned. just like anyone repeats things they heard or learned. if you feel she's wrong, there's a mentchliche way to say it. if your not sure about it, I can teach you: for example you can tell her "I think you misunderstood what you were taught. " or "its a harsh statement to say . can you provide me with exact source" or "interesting that your rabbi taught you that. my rabbi actually taught me quite the opposite"
and btw, why would you take it so personal. probably because you heard plenty of things in your life , like, if you don't wear a shpitzel then your not covering your hair. or if you don't wear palm and seams then your feet are naked. am I close? so ur just fed up with all this musser cuz you anyway live the way you want. not a problem. feel free to choose your path in life. but no need to get upset at pple that have a stricter viewpoint in yiddishkeit.
if I were to get upset at all the things I was taught and im not doing/ doing wrong, I'd be deep in depression by now. cuz : im using bc as I feel is necessary. im wearing 40 denior tights and not 80. im wearing eyemakeup . im not wearing a hat on my sheitel. I don't wear a collar. my skirt isn't always 4 inches below my knee.....
but I didn't feel that imachossid was attacking me. I felt she was saying her viewpoint/what she learned. that's all. she's entitled. she's not calling me a murderer. and she didn't say anything nasty in any of her comments to anyone.

Thu, Jun 25 2015, 11:09 pm

Hashem loves me wrote:

I don't disagree with your feelings about the poor orphan. But I think there is no moral of the story. Because based on your logic, no one should bring any kids into the world because maybe the parents will be killed in a freak accident and the kids will be left orphans.

imaima

Fri, Jun 26 2015, 1:24 am

boymom wrote:

youre right about the part that for many posters its hashkafah vs halachah, and I agree with the part that pple opt for the left viewpoint quicker but what struck me odd was the choice of words they use. funny how a person can use such opposite statements about a rav. " how can your rav decide for you vs. you must listen to your rav". if someone feels the need to ask a rav then maybe it's in the category of halachah for them. and besides, don't pple ask their rav on lots of hashkafah based questions , such as job options, shalom bayis questions, chinuch related questions... etc. ?

I think it is about "doing what is being easy for you" vs "pursuing a moral value that would make you into a martyr, while the value might not be so valuable".

In the end all the posters recommend to follow the opinion that would make OPs life easier.

In case of BC, they would say that rav have no say over your body.
But in case of, say being pregnant with a very sick child that the rav says to abort, he becomes an expert in moral values who tells you not to be a martyr and not try to carry to term and raise it.

Then again, posters advocate the opinion that eventually will be easier for OP, but in this case this coincides with the rav's opinion