Trying to understand

WriterMom

Fri, Jun 26 2015, 11:22 am

amother wrote:

Maybe you are right, maybe we make more than 150,000. I'm not sure of the exact number, but it is less than 200,000 for sure.

OK, being lucky and/or successful is nothing to be ashamed of. And I applaud you for the self-awareness you show in noticing that not everyone is a fortunate as you are, and thinking about what that means.

But not even knowing what your household income is? That is a marker of tremendous privilege, right there. What you are saying is that you don't need to budget. Again, I don't resent you for it, and you don't need to apologize for it. But that's a luxury that the vast majority of the planet - even the vast majority of the comfortable Jewish population who make a few multiples of the average - can't afford. Maybe as well as wondering why the poors can't have all the meat and chicken they want, you can take a moment to be thankful that's not even on your radar.

shoshanim999

Fri, Jun 26 2015, 11:23 am

Ok, the bottom line is that if a couple is really getting no help, then in order to buy a nice house in bklyn (at least 650k+) pay full tuition for several kids, send them to sleep away camp at around $4500 per kid, cars, monthly retirement money, a family would have to make a minimum of around 200K pre tax to meet those bills. There is no other side to this story. I wish there was!

amother

Olive

Fri, Jun 26 2015, 12:03 pm

To some extent, feeling wealthy or poor is a matter of perspective depending on your surroundings.

I have exactly your lifestyle, OP, but I feel immensely wealthy because I live in a poor neighborhood with lots of struggling kollel families. So when I go out to eat, or buy new clothes/shoes/handbag, I almost feel guilty and certainly don't publicize. There is an idea of "Bashamayim mimaal v'al haaretz mitachas" - when it comes to spirituality (shamayim), surround yourself with people way above you so that you will be motivated to improve. But when it comes to materialism (aretz) surround yourself with people way below you so you will always feel satisfied.

amother

Mistyrose

Fri, Jun 26 2015, 12:06 pm

shoshanim999 wrote:

I would not jump to the conclusion that a poster who is purporting to make 150-200k, is unsure of her exact household income, and speaks volume of indicators of privilege, is referring to pre-tax earnings. I will make the assumption that a poster who is uneducated about finances and budgeting is simply looking at what her husband comes home with as their income. I submit that she is either a)characterizing net pay as "income" or b)part of a specific type of brooklyn culture where finances are deliberately obfuscated at best, thus rendering the concept of necessary pre-tax income irrelevant.

WriterMom

Fri, Jun 26 2015, 12:12 pm

Are there really large swathes of Brooklyn in which people don't have to budget at all? I've never been there for more than a couple of days as a tourist, but have friends who grew up there, and that's not what they describe at all. They don't talk about grinding poverty, but everyone wore handmedowns, nobody went on cruises, etc.

Maybe the wealthy Brooklynites don't move elsewhere?

Fox

Fri, Jun 26 2015, 12:15 pm

Brilliant, Raisin! Thanks so much for posting that!

I think the message of that cartoon -- that little differences in opportunities and circumstances can have long-term consequences -- is even more amplified in the frum veldt.

For example, in several communities I'm familiar with, including my own, a professional degree almost guarantees a lower financial status than no degree or a quickie bachelor's degree.

For example, a group of successful contractors see the need for a plumbing supply company. They all put in some money and bring in somebody's son, son-in-law, or nephew to run the business. He works himself ragged, but he benefits from the advice and input of established businessmen *and* a semi-guaranteed customer base.

Fifteen years down the road, he's broadened his customer base, expanded, and is now paying himself $500K.

Meanwhile, the physician spends his time fighting with insurance companies and Medicare, and the lawyer must be a partner in a major firm to earn as much.

The guy who owns the plumbing supply business has worked very hard, learned a lot, paid back his early investors, and "earned" every bit of his success. But without the initial help, he wouldn't be in the same position.

Having a tight-knit social network with the means and will to help launch and employ young family heads is, IMHO, the biggest determinant of how difficult your financial struggle will be.

Sure, there's plenty of merit involved -- I've seen businesses fail because the people involved were lazy or simply didn't have the right personality to make a go of it.

But someone without a social network within the frum world is going to have to either be an extraordinary talent or extraordinarily lucky to overcome that disadvantage -- even with education coming out his ears.

pesek zman

Fri, Jun 26 2015, 12:17 pm

WriterMom wrote:

It's a joke I make everytime I go and see all the kids in their matching outfits, the babies in the trendiest and most expensive strollers, with every restaurant packed (in the middle of a work day. No one seems to have to work) There's no recession in Brooklyn.

amother

Green

Fri, Jun 26 2015, 12:30 pm

amother wrote:

I think you are insinuating that my husband earns cash under the table. That is not the case at all. We pay taxes on everything.

amother

Green

Fri, Jun 26 2015, 12:38 pm

WriterMom wrote:

But I'm not talking about not budgeting at all. Obviously I have to budget, I'm talking about normal luxuries. Nothing over the top. I don't go to steak houses once a week. But when I want to go, I go. We don't do fancy cruises every year. But if every couple of years I want to, then we go, etc...

I don't think most pple get what I'm trying to say. We are not fabulously wealthy. We have to be careful with our money. But normal things we can afford. Like your example of hand me downs. We buy new clothes. Nothing crazy, but when we need clothes we buy it. On this site, it seems like nobody can afford clothing and food, the basics!

And for the record, I am very thankful for what I have. I think I waould have a hard time being happy if I was poor. I do try to help as many as I can, including many imamothers, even though I am not swimming in money. The way I look at it is, if I really want the necklace for $100, then I get it, so I'll gladly squeeze out the money to someone who needs $100 for some baby clothes, or whatever...

amother

Mistyrose

Fri, Jun 26 2015, 12:38 pm

amother wrote:

I think you are insinuating that my husband earns cash under the table. That is not the case at all. We pay taxes on everything.

I'm glad to hear that you do. I wasn't insinuating otherwise, simply presenting it as one possible scenario. I also suggested that perhaps you are characterizing your take-home pay as your income. Could that be the case? Because as other posters have indicated, the numbers don't necessarily add up.

Snickers18

Fri, Jun 26 2015, 12:44 pm

MagentaYenta wrote:

I moved to the Pacific NW with my family 24 years ago from Los Angeles. We chose the location because I could still be employed while we got our farm up and running. My husband was a SAHD. Like most farmers it takes at least one income to survive in our case we found a niche in an area where small farms could turn a profit. Naturally we did our research.

Off topic, but we made the same move and couldn't be happier!

JAWSCIENCE

Fri, Jun 26 2015, 12:52 pm

SRS wrote:

Many people foregoing meat, vacations, unnecessary children's luxury purchases, buy 2nd hand, and skip the household help in order to max out their 401k, put money in a 529, save for the future AND pay massive amounts of tuition. Out of town that is basically 15K per kid per year for elementary and middle school.

I think the amount of tuition in different communities is definitely something OP may not be taking account. Where I live people making MORE money than OP and her husband cannot afford all of the luxuries she listed due to high tuition. //in MO schools it can be 20-25K per kid. Unless you limit family size it's tough to pay.

WriterMom

Fri, Jun 26 2015, 12:58 pm

amother wrote:

... I don't go to steak houses once a week. But when I want to go, I go. We don't do fancy cruises every year. But if every couple of years I want to, then we go, etc...

...We buy new clothes. Nothing crazy, but when we need clothes we buy it. On this site, it seems like nobody can afford clothing and food, the basics! ...

if I really want the necklace for $100, then I get it ...

To most people, and I think that includes most people on this site, and most comfortably middle class Jewish families, what you describe above is in fact 'wealthy.' To you it's normal, and that's fine - most people define themselves as normal. (And one of the jokes about the American class system is everybody considers themselves middle class, whether they make $30k or $300k. As an import, I find this really interesting.)

But I see ppl's point - your income is nobody else's business, but if your pre-tax household income is in fact between 150k and 200k, and you live in a major American city, it's hard to see how after housing, tax, tuition, health, utilities and cars, there's much left for treats. We aren't at that level, but we've looked at how the budget would change if we brought in $30k more or so when looking at job changes and moves - and since for us a bite of that would go to taxes and push us to full tuition, we still would have to plan carefully to have an occasional holiday anywhere but camping or staying with family.

I also feel some concern at any woman who doesn't have a handle on the household income and expenditures, because it makes you vulnerable. Even if you trust your DH 100% (which is good!) it's important to know how to balance your books, because the unexpected can happen at any time. And if your lifestyle is purchased with debt, or at the expense of saving for retirement, you should know about that because it affects your future and that of your kids as well.

Raisin

Fri, Jun 26 2015, 1:00 pm

amother wrote:

No I do not get any help. I have two children. We don't own a house in Brooklyn yet. That is because we spend too much on other things, and also because for years we have a few thousand dollars a month that we need to pay for something that I won't go into detail about. Maybe you are right, maybe we make more than 150,000. I'm not sure of the exact number, but it is less than 200,000 for sure.

In any case if you don't own a house that explains a lot. (unless you own a house outside of brooklyn) Are you saving up to buy one? IMO it is pretty easy to live well but irresponsibly. Not saving for a house, rainy day, simchos, retirement is irresponsible if you can afford to but choose not to.

seeker

Fri, Jun 26 2015, 1:39 pm

amother wrote:

I did not grow up wealthy. Nor are we wealthy now. We are/were definitely middle class. My experiences seem to be so far removed from people on thi site. For example, people on this site talk about eating meat or chicken as a luxury. Nobody seems to have cleaning ladies. People dont buy pizza. People dont buy plastic goods. People dont have couches. I have read comments that $4000.00 a month is a good salary.

My kids go to a school where there ared definitely many wealthy people. Still, the majority are not. We all pay full tuition, have cleaning ladies, go on vacations, have bugaboos, buy our chilren nice clothing, send the kids to extra curricular activities, go out to eat, go to bungalow colonies, buy as much meat and chicken as we want, etc....
Pretty much, my whole life, the people I am around live like this. Not necessarily wealthy, but never lacking. The way I see it, jews in general are at least middle class. Why is it on this site, I am constantly reading about people who cant even afford groceries? If such people are so rampant, why dont I know any of them? Lately I have really been wondering about this.

If you pay full tuition for a Jewish day school, have regular cleaning help, vacations, bugaboos, nice clothing, eating out, summer homes, and as much meat and chicken as you want, then you are wealthy. Not sure where you got your impression that you aren't. Sorry to disillusion you.