Trying to understand

Shani88

Fri, Jun 26 2015, 1:42 pm

Op, I was able to relate to the first half of your post in that I too was surprised to see so many imamothers speaking about pizza and a couch being a luxury but the rest of your post listing bungalow colonies, bugaboos, vacations, and living in Brooklyn making 150-200k without having to think about finances did not make sense to me.

Not owning a house explains a lot. Have you started thinking about saving up for a down payment yet? Do you know how much a decent size house in Brooklyn costs and what your mortgage would be?

amother

Green

Fri, Jun 26 2015, 2:18 pm

Shani88 wrote:

Yes. We save for a down payment. We are bh almost there. No one is helping us, so we have to do on our own, and we obviously spend more then we should. We do own a house btw, just not in bklyn.

seeker

Fri, Jun 26 2015, 2:18 pm

amother wrote:

But I'm not talking about not budgeting at all. Obviously I have to budget, I'm talking about normal luxuries. Nothing over the top. I don't go to steak houses once a week. But when I want to go, I go. We don't do fancy cruises every year. But if every couple of years I want to, then we go, etc...

I don't think most pple get what I'm trying to say. We are not fabulously wealthy. We have to be careful with our money. But normal things we can afford. Like your example of hand me downs. We buy new clothes. Nothing crazy, but when we need clothes we buy it. On this site, it seems like nobody can afford clothing and food, the basics!

And for the record, I am very thankful for what I have. I think I waould have a hard time being happy if I was poor. I do try to help as many as I can, including many imamothers, even though I am not swimming in money. The way I look at it is, if I really want the necklace for $100, then I get it, so I'll gladly squeeze out the money to someone who needs $100 for some baby clothes, or whatever...

What is the meaning of this phrase "normal luxuries" Scratching Head

:
"When I want to go, I go" is not called budgeting. It's called having whatever you want. This is not typical and is definitely a high standard of living.
"Normal" is a relative term. If by "not fabulously wealthy" you mean you don't own a mansion with multiple full-time staff and three Rolls-Royces on several acres of property, then that puts you together with about 99.9% of the world's population.

I think you need to get out more and meet more people if imamother gives you that much culture shock. I live very very modestly compared to you, but I work in schools with diverse populations and I am still better off than most of my students. NOBODY they know has a summer home, even a rented bungalow. We have a discussion about seasons and their summer vacation is taking the train to visit the beach at Coney Island. And they are even better off than some people here and certainly than most people in wherever their parents came from. The world is not a luxurious place in general.

GreenEyes26

Fri, Jun 26 2015, 3:10 pm

Listen, we can nit-pick the OP's finances to kingdom come. Yes, the fact that she doesn't yet own a home in Brooklyn makes a big difference. We don't know how much she's saving, etc etc. This could go on forever.

But at the end of the day, I think she's making an important (if ill-phrased and slightly entitled) point: not being able to afford things like chicken and meat even once a week AS A GROWN ADULT isn't a normal level of financial security. Not being able to afford new clothes EVER, new shoes, never ever getting takeout, a latte on occasion, a manicure, etc......EVER EVER EVER because spending an extra $10 will break your budget isn't a normal thing.

The way a LOT of women on this site live is NOT healthy, nor is it my experience in most Jewish communities where people plan for financial success to the best of their ability. But I will say again: this site has many, many members who are part of a Jewish community that doesn't prize (or even outright forbids) secular education past high school (and elementary school for some men), and who value a large amount of children over anything else, and whose men are basically entirely lacking skills and job prospects.

So you tell me: when you have a bunch of kids + big tuition bills + no possibility of a well-paying job, what do you get?

You get a zillion posts on imamother about how you can't afford the basics, let alone luxuries. Where you have threads that go on for pages and pages about how much you can cut your grocery bill. How buying chicken even for Shabbos is a luxury. Hand me downs are the norm. Living in a two or three bedroom apartment with 6+ children and no possibility of getting out.

I don't think imamother is indicative of the way most Jewish families live. But it makes me sad that there are enough women who do live that way, and have no options and no way of making their lives better. This problem goes deeper than rice and beans three times a week. But that's a discussion for another time.

WriterMom

Fri, Jun 26 2015, 3:34 pm

GreenEyes26 wrote:

Not being able to afford new clothes EVER, new shoes, never ever getting takeout, a latte on occasion, a manicure, etc......EVER EVER EVER because spending an extra $10 will break your budget isn't a normal thing.

Agreed, 100%. But there is a very big gulf between "I can't ever get a latte or new shoes" and "I go for a cruise when I want to." $150k may not be luxurious in the frum world, but it allows for a manicure before your anniversary, etc - just not weekly.

Quote:

So you tell me: when you have a bunch of kids + big tuition bills + no possibility of a well-paying job, what do you get? You get a zillion posts on imamother about how you can't afford the basics, let alone luxuries. Where you have threads that go on for pages and pages about how much you can cut your grocery bill. How buying chicken even for Shabbos is a luxury. Hand me downs are the norm. Living in a two or three bedroom apartment with 6+ children and no possibility of getting out.

I would never choose a life like that, no. But that's not the world I was raised in. If I'd been brought up to believe that it was holier and better to have a huge family no matter what, and that I should prefer a full-time learner over a man who could support a family, I don't know that I'd have been a rebel and taken a different path.

The financial struggles you describe, and which show up here a lot, make me very sad, and I wish nobody had to live like that. However, I cannot blame anybody for following the 'script' with which they were raised, because most of us do, to one extent or another. And given how some of these particular communities arrived at these values, I cannot bring myself to blame the communities in general, because they're reacting to very real challenges.

I guess TL;dr these aren't individual problems, they're collective problems (at least in part) and therefore fixing them will require more than any given individual making different choices.

amother

Green

Fri, Jun 26 2015, 3:50 pm

GreenEyes26 wrote:

Thanks. I think you expressed my thoughts very eloquently. In sorry I came out sounding entitled. I guess I'm just not expressing myself well. What people are not understanding is that the reason I can go on a cruise "when I want" is because I make money, save money, and don't just spend money on every whim I have. Then, when I want to treat myself, I can. In addition, the other point I was trying to make, is that a lot of these things that people called luxuries like manicures and paper goods and day camp are just not luxuries in my world. They are just facts of life. And no, there is no "family money" like other posters suggested. We all have different jobs and manage to make in the $150-200,000 range. Grandparents, parents, siblings, uncles, etc...

amother

Periwinkle

Fri, Jun 26 2015, 4:06 pm

The one thing I will add is that making $200k with 2 kids is a lot different than with 6. The average family is not making that kind of money until they are further along in their careers and as such they already have a few school aged kids. That $200k is not getting you that far anymore. It's also different if the income is one salary or 2. It stretches a lot further if it's from 1 and not 2 incomes. We're making about $200k combined, and with 4 kids in school plus childcare we could no way live the lifestyle you are. So unless your income continues to climd significantly you will not be able to keep up this lifestyle. Just some food for thought.

amother

Mauve

Fri, Jun 26 2015, 4:22 pm

amother wrote:

I live among people who struggle while I can have pretty much everything I want. The difference comes down to education and expectation. All my friends from college made it. My siblings all made it. My husband's siblings made it. We expected to make it because this is how we were brought up.

My friends who are struggling for some reason can't see this. They say that hashem wants them to struggle. Why not change things for your kids and get them educated? My friend told me I am flawed last week for my push on education.

amother

Green

Fri, Jun 26 2015, 4:46 pm

amother wrote:

We do have two school age children. But they are just two not six. Also, our income does come from one person.

amother

Azure

Fri, Jun 26 2015, 5:53 pm

Quote:

My friends who are struggling for some reason can't see this. They say that hashem wants them to struggle. Why not change things for your kids and get them educated? My friend told me I am flawed last week for my push on education.

My parents were very pro-education. I have a degree from a college that is very prestigious in my field. However, the field at this point is over-saturated and despite working 40 hours a week, I don't get paid very well - with 10+ years experience.

My husband did learn in kollel for a few years but he has been in school for 3 years and is getting his Masters Degree iy"h in two more years. So despite our being educated, we will be in our thirties with close to $100,000 in student loans before we are making a triple digit income.

I think you are making a gross generalization stating that if you have an education you can make money. How many law school graduates do I know that can't get jobs? How many MBA graduates do I know that don't work in their fields, but had to take different jobs? And I'm sure there are many other examples.

Life is not so black and white...

sneakermom

Fri, Jun 26 2015, 5:56 pm

I grew up with a mix of different families. Rich and poor. Nobody that I knew no matter if they were poor only ate chicken on Shabbos. Maybe they also had tuna patties once a week (which was foreign to me) or hand me down clothes (very common) or less cleaning help (as needed not weekly), didn't go to the bungalow colony, never bought ices or cupcakes for their kids (only homemade) and going for pizza was a real real treat. But that's it. Not more than that. And they did send their kids to day camp!

I wonder if it's poverty based on location. Maybe in certain neighborhoods it is much much harder to make ends meet.

I don't know. I will say I learned a lot of ingenuity here. Tricks to save a buck that really work. I am grateful for that!

zaq

Fri, Jun 26 2015, 6:10 pm

Of course it's harder to make ends meet in some locations than others. Housing costs vary widely. So do costs of groceries. And transportation. Ironically, food prices are sometimes higher in higher-crime neighborhoods where vendors have higher losses from theft, arson and the like, higher insurance premiums, and have to institute more expensive security measures. Kosher food costs will be higher further away from major Jewish areas because the vendors lose the economies of scale. A truck's mileage is the same and the driver's pay is the same whether the order is a dozen pallets or two cases.

When both parents work outside the home, sending kids to day camp is a necessity, not a luxury. Sleepaway is the luxury.

Some fields that require a college degree are notoriously poorly paid, and even in well=paid fields, there is a range. Many people are in the lower range and never see the top dollar jobs. Not every engineer gets a job with Google, you know?

amother

Mauve

Fri, Jun 26 2015, 7:20 pm

zaq wrote:

True but engineers in general will do much better than other college grads. A lower range engineer will do better than a lower range teacher.

amother

Mauve

Fri, Jun 26 2015, 7:36 pm

amother wrote:

Quote:

Your Husband chose to not work for a few years and pursue his education late. A college degree is not a guarantee of a job. I took a 15 year break in my field. I can't expect the same salary as those that have that extra 15 years. I don't hold that against my education. You have to be smart which field you choose. Not every field is as employable as others.

Law school graduates and MBAs make more money than those without the credentials. No one is guaranteeing a career, but those grads have opportunities that those without their degrees don't have
.

While I didn't officially work for 15 years I managed our investments. I could not have done this without my education and training. We are a one income professional family that owns our house outright and has set aside money for our children beyond their education.

I paid for my education myself with a combo of loans, a state school undergraduate and scholarships. DH got his education paid for. I intend to educate my children in a smart field and if they choose not to work so be it. They can make that choice when they are older.

amother

Mauve

Fri, Jun 26 2015, 8:21 pm

MagentaYenta wrote:

The guy that mows my lawn has an engineering degree.

So? The point is that in general engineers have better opportunities than non engineers. Engineering might not have suited him or he might not have suited employers. You must look at the highest paid graduate majors and 8 out of 10 are engineers.

More engineering graduates are engineering than mowing. DH is a licensed engineer who doesn't work as an engineer. He could probably make more as an engineer, but we are comfortable and I choose not to work in my field because I rather be a SAHM. The point is education gave us choices that non educated people don't have. We have two safety nets.

ora_43

Sat, Jun 27 2015, 2:32 pm

GreenEyes26 wrote:

But at the end of the day, I think she's making an important (if ill-phrased and slightly entitled) point: not being able to afford things like chicken and meat even once a week AS A GROWN ADULT isn't a normal level of financial security. Not being able to afford new clothes EVER, new shoes, never ever getting takeout, a latte on occasion, a manicure, etc......EVER EVER EVER because spending an extra $10 will break your budget isn't a normal thing.

But it is normal. That's the point of all the posts pointing out to OP that she's in the top 5% financially.

Is it desirable, no. But it's the way that many many people do live.

Quote:

I very much agree that adults need to have a realistic financial plan and a way to support themselves.

But I think we shouldn't be too quick to judge based on imamother. Government statistics show serious poverty in some frum communities and that's something to worry about. But people sharing their poverty woes on a site like this - it's impossible to know what that reflects, if anything. It could just be that people with money problems are more likely to post about their finances, the same way there are posts about shalom bayit issues and intimacy issues, but not posts about amazing marriages.

imaima

Sun, Jun 28 2015, 3:09 am

ora_43 wrote:

There are a lot of vents "I have no money to make shabbes", and therr are rarr threads like " how much are you making and how many kids you have" etc. The latter thrrads show that it is actually the minority who are very poor.