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Can u explain frum ppl being happy over gay marriage?
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amother
Pumpkin


 

Post Sun, Jun 28 2015, 9:06 am
I have to say surprised to see all the positivity by frum people over the legalization of gay marriage in the U.S. I'm shocked by my Facebook feeds of frum people supporting this, and changing their avatars to pride rainbows.
Can u explain why you are so happy about something that the Torah is against?
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watergirl




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Jun 28 2015, 9:12 am
Because it means that democracy "works", and that the same laws that allow this type of union will also protect our rights.
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lucymaud




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Jun 28 2015, 9:14 am
Because life is complicated and I don't see gay marriage as a threat to Torah values.
Now I've just finished reading a thread about how special needs children from New Square are adopted out, as a matter of community policy. That's a complete violation of Torah values. Sometimes I think we get upset about the wrong things.
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amother
Navy


 

Post Sun, Jun 28 2015, 9:17 am
Because liberalism has seeped into the frum community.....
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miracleshappen




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Jun 28 2015, 9:20 am
Because some people separate their political views from their religious views.
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amother
Lilac


 

Post Sun, Jun 28 2015, 9:24 am
....
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gp2.0




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Jun 28 2015, 9:25 am
Because 1. It is not a sin for non-Jews to have gay marriage, therefore there is no reason not to be happy for them and 2. As a minority group (Jews) it is in our best interests to support legislation that ensures freedom and rights to other minority groups.
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smilingmom




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Jun 28 2015, 9:25 am
I did not change my profile to skittles colors, but I am for equal rights for all people.
If gay couples could have the same rights and protections without a 'marriage' that would be great, but our federal laws give married couples rights that domestic partnerships do not have.
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morah




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Jun 28 2015, 9:27 am
I believe the court made the correct decision. That said, I agree with op. I find it very off-putting that so many frum people are openly celebrating and the rainbow fb profiles are bothering me too. I may think the court ruled correctly, doesn't mean I have to be happy about and celebrate something so against our values. Yes, it's against our values. Doesn't get more against than an explicit Torah Prohibition.
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mommy3b2c




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Jun 28 2015, 9:27 am
gp2.0 wrote:
Because 1. It is not a sin for non-Jews to have gay marriage, therefore there is no reason not to be happy for them and 2. As a minority group (Jews) it is in our best interests to support legislation that ensures freedom and rights to other minority groups.


It is actually one of the only sins for non-Jews. It is one of the noahide laws.
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shabbatiscoming




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Jun 28 2015, 9:29 am
mommy2b2c wrote:
It is actually one of the only sins for non-Jews. It is one of the noahide laws.
No. the sin is to have relations, not to be married. And yes, I know that one means the other, but the getting married part is not a sin, not at all.
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mille




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Jun 28 2015, 9:30 am
Separation of church and state is a good thing. I don't think most frum Jews are unhappy that orthodox rabbis won't marry gay jews, but we feel that it is not the government's place to make decisions with a religious foundation (I'm still all ears if someone has a legitimate argument against homose.xuality that does not have a religious basis to it).

It also literally has no effect on us, because as orthodox jews, we feel that "marriage" licenses as issued by the US government are NOT halachically binding whatsoever. It literally does not matter to us in terms of halacha if people are "married" according to the state or not (yes, it's petty semantics -- if it were called "civil union" even for heterose-xual couples from the get-go, I imagine there would have been less of an issue ultimately). So why not rejoice in the triumph of another oppressed people, as we have known oppression in our times?

And, as stated above, I separate my political views and my religious views.

I don't expect to change anyone's mind with this, I'm merely stating my opinion. Similarly, any attempts to change my mind will probably fall on deaf ears, so I am trying to save any random amothers who get worked up over my comment some time. Don't bother. Tongue Out
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gp2.0




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Jun 28 2015, 9:30 am
mommy2b2c wrote:
It is actually one of the only sins for non-Jews. It is one of the noahide laws.


Oh I see. I didn't realize that.

Anyway, my second reason still stands.

(And frankly I don't think we have the right to force our religious ideals onto others, the same way we don't want others to force theirs on us.)
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rainbow dash




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Jun 28 2015, 9:30 am
lucymaud wrote:
Because life is complicated and I don't see gay marriage as a threat to Torah values.
Now I've just finished reading a thread about how special needs children from New Square are adopted out, as a matter of community policy. That's a complete violation of Torah values. Sometimes I think we get upset about the wrong things.


Can you send me a link to that thread. Soo sad.
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etky




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Jun 28 2015, 9:32 am
miracleshappen wrote:
Because some people separate their political views from their religious views.


Indeed. But are we really supposed to sustain this type of dichotomy as frum Jews? Is our religious hashkafa not supposed to inform our world view on all matters, at least those that have a moral component? Where do we draw the line and using which criteria? I don't know the answers, just underscoring the complexity of this issue.
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shabbatiscoming




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Jun 28 2015, 9:35 am
rainbow dash wrote:
Can you send me a link to that thread. Soo sad.
http://www.imamother.com/forum.....ight=
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etky




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Jun 28 2015, 9:37 am
mille wrote:
Separation of church and state is a good thing. I don't think most frum Jews are unhappy that orthodox rabbis won't marry gay jews, but we feel that it is not the government's place to make decisions with a religious foundation (I'm still all ears if someone has a legitimate argument against homose.xuality that does not have a religious basis to it).

It also literally has no effect on us, because as orthodox jews, we feel that "marriage" licenses as issued by the US government are NOT halachically binding whatsoever. It literally does not matter to us in terms of halacha if people are "married" according to the state or not (yes, it's petty semantics -- if it were called "civil union" even for heterose-xual couples from the get-go, I imagine there would have been less of an issue ultimately). So why not rejoice in the triumph of another oppressed people, as we have known oppression in our times?

And, as stated above, I separate my political views and my religious views.

I don't expect to change anyone's mind with this, I'm merely stating my opinion. Similarly, any attempts to change my mind will probably fall on deaf ears, so I am trying to save any random amothers who get worked up over my comment some time. Don't bother. Tongue Out


But it does affect us. It establishes homosexual relationships as the legitimate legal equivalent of heterosexual ones while the Torah regards this as anathema. How do we now explain this to our children? It creates yet another major point of divergence of Jewish and "normal" western, democratic values. I imagine that some religious Christians are having a similar dillemma.
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morah




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Jun 28 2015, 9:40 am
etky wrote:
But it does affect us. It establishes homosexual relationships as the legitimate legal equivalent of heterosexual ones while the Torah regards this as anathema. How do we now explain this to our children? It creates yet another major point of divergence of Jewish and "normal" western, democratic values. I imagine that some religious Christians are having a similar dillemma.

Meh. My kids already diverge from normal Western values because they can't eat at McDonald's. So, this is one more thing to apprise them of: people who don't believe in Torah think 2 people of the same gender can marry. Hashem says that's not allowed. Just like He says we can't eat cheeseburgers. So we don't do that.
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imasinger




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Jun 28 2015, 9:45 am
Because being gay is not a choice, but the way some percentage of people are wired. For those who face all the challenges that this entails, AND are denied certain rights that have nothing to do with the bedroom, is offensive.

Because this concept of long term gay partnership is not treated d'oraita. Or d'rabbanan.

Because even the 7 laws of b'nai Noach are not treated the same. You don't hear frum Jews screaming that atheists should be given fewer rights than believers, for instance.

Because, as a musician, I have many friends whom this affects personally. When it is a set of people you care for and respect, it's a different experience than being against some amorphous other that is doing something the Torah forbids.

I am delighted for this victory for fairness under American law.
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etky




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Jun 28 2015, 9:49 am
morah wrote:
Meh. My kids already diverge from normal Western values because they can't eat at McDonald's. So, this is one more thing to apprise them of: people who don't believe in Torah think 2 people of the same gender can marry. Hashem says that's not allowed. Just like He says we can't eat cheeseburgers. So we don't do that.


The cheeseburger doesn't have feelings, It doesn't care that it is being rejected by you. There's no moral dillema. Not allowing two people who love each other to marry can be construed as a very cruel, backwards and unenlightened Jewish position.
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