What happened to saying excuse me?! Rant

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Deep

Sun, Jul 05 2015, 8:58 pm

amother wrote:

Maybe it's the effect a country or city has on you. I live in Montreal in a very frum chassidish neighborhood and I've never encountered rude behavior when shopping in the local stores. Canadians are very polite and soare the frum yidden here.

So who's influencing whom?

Fellow Montrealer here Wave

. ITA.
What is especially interesting, is that a large percentage of the local chassidishe men are born and bred New Yorkers. I guess the Northern atmosphere has a civilizing effect.

amother

Blue

Sun, Jul 05 2015, 9:21 pm

zaq wrote:

Ahem. 8 million New Yorkers cannot possibly all be Holocaust survivors. So let's lop off the 4 million New Yorkers who don't honk their horns twenty seconds before the light turns green. The other 4 million still cannot all be Holocaust survivors. So what's their excuse?

I've lived in NY for 20 years. I drive to work, every day. In Manhattan. I have never heard anyone honk before the light changes. I think you've been reading too many Lemony Snickett style accounts of New York, but never actually been there.

Are Israelis rude? Well, perhaps we should say they're differently mannered. It's part of their culture. Which is great when they're in Israel, not so great elsewhere.

Is the average religious Jew more rude than the average American? Maybe. Certainly they are quite rude to people outside their group. I have stories about shopping in Monsey that would curl your sheitel. On one occasion until the nasty rude person needed my phone, then I'm a fellow Jew. But I've experienced rudeness elsewhere, and kind, polite people in kosher stores.

gp2.0

Sun, Jul 05 2015, 10:12 pm

There are both nice and rude people everywhere.

Just google "black friday stampede" and see what you get.

FranticFrummie

Mon, Jul 06 2015, 4:38 am

gp2.0 wrote:

There are both nice and rude people everywhere.

Just google "black friday stampede" and see what you get.

A once a year shopping spree is hardly a comparison.

Think of the "stampede" happening every erev Shabbos, at every banquet table, every kiddush, every simcha you can image where food is involved, and at every grocery store.

I'm seeing a pattern here, and it goes back to my earlier post about "bread lines". I think there's a concept of food insecurity, which makes people lose any civilization that they might have at other times and in other places.

33055

Mon, Jul 06 2015, 6:41 am

gp2.0 wrote:

There are both nice and rude people everywhere.

Just google "black friday stampede" and see what you get.

You can also goggle "riot". Riots and stampedes are not the normal behavior of religious communities. I can't imagine at church events people pushing and shoving for food. I lived in Brooklyn among Jehovah's Witnesses. They are polite well mannered so you can't blame the urban environment.

My car has been hit on average once every 2 years since I lived in Monsey. I drive here daily. Frum drivers don't obey the rules of the road. They often will go when they don't have the right of way. They will go right behind so someone who just went through a 4 way stop. The most common car is a banged up minivan. Forget it if it is dovening time. Cars are parked in driveways, men go around stopped school buses, and speed limits are ignored on urban blocks with children. There is your stampede. You don't see this on Sunday mornings. People attend church in a calm manner. They don't ignore their neighbor's needs such as driveways because they have to pray.

I think the people who defend frum behavior as normal don't know what normal behavior is. This was my first thought when I heard what the Montrealers were saying. My second thought was that I can learn something new. I googled " are Montrealers polite?" I didn't get any hits, however, "are Montrealers rude?" came up. I opened that and came up up with pages of stories.

Simple1

Mon, Jul 06 2015, 7:46 am

Maybe this varies by location? People for the most part are decently mannered where I live (Lakewood). Then again, I try to avoid shopping at really crowded times - at non Jewish stores too.

gp2.0

Mon, Jul 06 2015, 8:46 am

FranticFrummie wrote:

It is a comparison because it shows that human nature everywhere is to push ahead of others, to trample others in pursuit of something you want. Obviously we all need to try to rise above our base instincts, but to say this is a "jewish" problem is ludicrous. It is *also* a Jewish problem, because Jewish people are human.

Sure I have anecdotal experience of Jews and non-Jews acting horribly. But I have also experienced the good of humanity. I'm sure you all have too. Why are you discounting the drivers who pause to let you pass or make a u-turn, the drivers who pull over when they see someone pulled over on the side of the road, the drivers who stop for stopped school busses and wave children across the street? Is it because behaving with courtesy is the "normal" state of affairs and therefore it isn't remarkable? Shouldn't we be noticing and celebrating all the good as often as we deplore the bad? What about the chassidish guy at the grocery store who wouldn't make eye contact with me or talk to me, but noticed I was struggling to get something off a high shelf and handed it to me without a word? Should I be upset about his lack of one kind of courtesy, or celebrating his act of another kind of courtesy?

Simple1

Mon, Jul 06 2015, 8:56 am

And while we're at it, are we allowed to bash non-Jewish drivers? Because 99% of the road rage and cursing I've noticed is from them. The frum Jews are usually easygoing on the road.

mommy3b2c

Mon, Jul 06 2015, 9:09 am

gp2.0 wrote:

Thank you for this. All these posts bashing Jews get me so upset. I don't even bother to answer. Stating that frum Jews are any ruder than anyone else is just ridiculous. Are there rude frum Jews? Sure. Are there rude non-Jews? Sure. The majority of people in this world are polite. On a daily basis, almost ALL people I meet are polite. Sometimes I meet rude people. Many of the rude people are non-Jewish.

sneakermom

Mon, Jul 06 2015, 9:18 am

gp2.0 wrote:

Thank you! This is exactly what I feel.

naturalmom5

Mon, Jul 06 2015, 9:54 am

Simple1 wrote:

Maybe this varies by location? People for the most part are decently mannered where I live (Lakewood). Then again, I try to avoid shopping at really crowded times - at non Jewish stores too.

Maybe there are so many other things going on in Lakewood , the schools, the Mikva , shidduchim, so the soton leaves us alone in the supermarket lol

I have BH never encountered bad behavior shopping in groceries stores in Lakewood

Simple1

Mon, Jul 06 2015, 9:59 am

naturalmom5 wrote:

LOL, yes. I have enough complaints here, but I have come to the realization that rudeness is not necessarily one of them.

studying_torah

Mon, Jul 06 2015, 10:12 am

Actually one incident happened to me in lakewood, another in monsey etc. It happens all over w all sorts of ppl sadly.
I guess I just hope that yidden will behave better and not shove ppl out of their way, or try to ignore a lady taking something off a shelf and instead bump into her and glare at her when she says please say excuse me.
Def was not intending to start a frum , not frum etc debate here.

sneakermom

Mon, Jul 06 2015, 10:24 am

studying_torah wrote:

We can always be better. It's never perfect. The question is what are you looking out for? The kindness and consideration that is also prevalent or the bad apples?

I also see some rude people. A guy coming with a bunch of kids erev Shabbos trying to push his way ahead of the line. I can become indignant with angry thoughts buzzing inside my head. Or I can take it easy. And think this guy is stressed. He's underdeveloped emotionally. Nebach on him. (While even being assertive and firmly not letting him cut the line)

And that same time in the grocery I also chanced upon an old acquaintance who was so kind and gave me a lot of information regarding something I was looking into. Out of the kindness of her heart.

It's all what you focus on.

Notsobusy

Mon, Jul 06 2015, 10:28 am

FranticFrummie wrote:

Do you really see such behavior at every one of those examples? I don't. Occasionally there will be somebody rude, or a few kids trying to get to the food, but I never see "stampedes" or pushing. The only complaints I have in the local groceries is that people leave their wagons in the middle of the narrow aisles. But I honestly hardly ever see any pushing or shoving. Are some frum people rude? Definitely. Are most? I don't see it.

33055

Mon, Jul 06 2015, 10:35 am

sneakermom wrote:

You can focus on all the wonderful things and all the kindnesses. It doesn't negate the rudeness. I don't let the rude people upset my day in the slightest, but I also don't pretend it doesn't exist. If manners are not taught at home and not taught in school, where do you learn them? Perhaps one person reading this might question of pushing and shoving is normal accepted behavior in larger society.

I loudly applaud the Skvere kollel that is teaching manners. They are proactively addressing a sadly neglected area.

There are other issues that need to be addressed such as letting 2 year olds out without supervision for instance. Saying others do it too or look at all the moms that do watch their kid fails to address the actual issue.

It is not bashing frum people to state that there is an issue.

Fox

Mon, Jul 06 2015, 11:40 am

Squishy wrote:

It is not bashing frum people to state that there is an issue.

Thank you, Squishy!

I was getting seriously depressed from reading all these responses of people who "don't let it get to them" or try to "stay positive."

Every time frum Jews are revealed to have been involved in illegal financial schemes, domestic abuse, s-xual abuse, fraud, tax evasion, blackmail . . . the threads here on Imamother are unequivocal in their condemnation. Fair enough.

But barring the genuinely mentally ill, how do you think those frum miscreants came to engage in their activities?

Do you think that there are hidden pockets of Jewish Ma Barkers, carefully rearing their kids toward lives of crime?

No. People who make the news for their calculated misdeeds had a long educational process starting in their earliest years. They learned that "if you don't push, you won't get anywhere." They learned that "if you're in a hurry, it's okay to inconvenience others." They learned that "if you don't grab it, someone else will."

They learned, in short, that *their* gratification comes before virtually any other concern. They learn that vatronus is for losers and wimps. They learn that being taken advantage of is the worst possible outcome. With that mindset, it's an easy jump to actions that disgust or embarrass us all.

So when someone behaves in an uncivil manner, she is educating her children that life is a smash-and-grab. And when the rest of us accept it as a natural occurence, we're educating our children that we're willing to live like savages.

Who *cares* whether Jews or non-Jews are "worse"? I don't see that used as an excuse when Jews are accused of defrauding government programs or endangering the lives of those entrusted to their care.

But if you don't like the "broken windows" theory of social behavior, how about this: Many of the halachos bein adam l'chevero that are regularly transgressed through rude and uncivil behavior are actually halachos d'orisa.

Worry less about your friend who is a little tzefloygan with her milk versus meat organizing and a more about your friend who pushes her kid to the front of the line.

If you afford it during the Three Weeks, please buy Rabbi Dovid Castle's "To Live Among Friends: Laws and Ethics of Everyday Interactions". This is a two-volume set on the halachos bein adam l'chevero, and I guarantee that it will be a serious eye-opener.

We also need to get rid of this mentality of "That's the way things are in NY/Israel/East Des Moines, Iowa. You know what? It's also possible to get ham sandwiches in NY/Israel/East Des Moines. But we don't. Why should our behavior bein adam l'chavero be any different?

Being rude and uncivil is definitely more common in cultures, subcultures, and regions where a modicum of aggressiveness is necessary or admired. I think most of us understand that there are good and legitimate reasons that Israelis have to keep an in-your-face edge.

But aggressiveness, like any other midda, is pareve. It's the application that is good or bad. The posture that is appropriate when standing up to one's declared enemies is different than the posture needed at the grocery store or amusement park.

Ultimately, good manners are a kind of wealth that is available to everyone, regardless of income. They signal that you are rich enough that you don't have to scrabble like an animal at the trough.

When I see strangers behaving uncivilly, I feel sorry for their poverty. How do I know they are poor? Because no matter how they are dressed or bedecked, their actions state clearly, "I am afraid there won't be enough for me, and my life depends on getting some."

Understandable in the context of the Holocaust, displacement, war, and many other human tragedies. But not the default attitude to accept in Wal-Mart.

The expensive clothing, beautiful jewelry, and custom shaitel is revealed as a sham when the pushing, shoving, and conniving begin. No amount of money can hide psychological impoverishment.

Chloe

Mon, Jul 06 2015, 11:57 am

Squishy, I also live in Monsey and do not share your sentiments at all.

Sure there are people that are nasty, rude, pushing and shoving, in the stores and on the road. But that comes from all different kinds of society.

Fox

Mon, Jul 06 2015, 12:20 pm

Chloe wrote:

Sure there are people that are nasty, rude, pushing and shoving, in the stores and on the road. But that comes from all different kinds of society.

Forgive me, but I'm thoroughly confused.

You indicate that there *is* a problem. Do we wait until it reaches some critical tipping point before we address it?

Why does it matter whether 20 percent of Jews are rude versus 21.3 percent of non-Jews?

Jews have specific halachos that they are required to follow in these matters, whereas non-Jews do not.

sneakermom

Mon, Jul 06 2015, 12:20 pm

Fox no one is saying rudeness is okay. That's totally not the point.

I just find it equally rude to monitor and pounce on every step out of the line.

Both extremes are distorted.

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