My DD wants to join a children's choir

amother

Magenta

Wed, Jul 08 2015, 11:22 pm

It's a secular choir. She would be the only frum kid. She loves to sing. We don't have a Jewish kids choir around here. She's 7 by the way.

Would you let your DD join a choir? (assuming you think singing is not forbidden in public because men are present).

The thing is that although she could attend the practices, she would not be able to attend many of the recitals because they are held on Shabbos.

I'm sure around the holiday time, the group would probably sing plenty o' yule tidings.

And some of the recitals are in a church. (but not for church or prayer services, just as a public forum).

To some extent, I think interacting with different types of kids could be a cultural learning experience.

kenz

Wed, Jul 08 2015, 11:37 pm

amother wrote:

There are so many reasons why I would not allow this. I'm clearly coming from a different place but I think this sounds like a bad choice for any frum kid. And if she cant sing in many of the recitals, will she be satisfied?

amother

Magenta

Wed, Jul 08 2015, 11:40 pm

kenz wrote:

Thanks Kenz for your reply. What are some of your many reasons?

FranticFrummie

Wed, Jul 08 2015, 11:56 pm

My DD was in choir in public school. There were lots of Muslim kids, so they were very careful to keep the music parve and secular. Don't know if that will be the case for your DD's choir, so check first.

Churches are extremely problematic, especially if there are statues there (saints and stuff).

My DD missed all of the recitals, and was fine with it. She understood going in. The choir director was really unhappy about it, though. I had to explain to her that the point of attending choir was so that my child could learn music theory, not to just stand there and make the teacher look good.

Oh, another thing. The choir teacher insisted that all the kids wear short sleeve school shirts, and black pants. Of course I had a fit, and insisted that DD be allowed to wear a black shell under the t-shirt, and a black skirt. At first the teacher refused, and I said "Fine, kick her out and give her an F for the class." The teacher backed down, and DD got to wear the skirt. All the Muslim moms thought that I was the hero of the day for standing up to the teacher. They were too scared to speak up until I did. I loved seeing all of those little Muslim girls in their black shells and long black skirts! Very Happy

sourstix

Thu, Jul 09 2015, 12:03 am

I dont agree. we dont mingle with non jews when we dont have to. she will be the only jewish kid. I wouldnt do it. shes young and when she gets older she can join some of the choirs I think its in brooklyn all jewish all frum. she can wait. shes young. if shes interested it will be a interest later too. if its just a passing faze, then its not her calling. either way you won. its exposing her so young to so many questionable things.

amother

Magenta

Thu, Jul 09 2015, 12:16 am

I can't say that she would be the only Jewish kid. She'd probably be the only frum kid though. I know there are non Christians, Muslims, in the choir.

We, as a family, tend to socialize with other Jews because they are our friends. Our kids go to day school and all we meet are other Jews. Not all of them are frum though. we don't have a policy of not socializing with non-Jews though. In fact, we do have family that is not Jewish. Should have mentioned that in the beginning.

So, we don't have an inherent fear of non-Jews.

We don't live in Brooklyn. Not everyone lives in Brooklyn.

amother

Aubergine

Thu, Jul 09 2015, 12:37 am

This goes beyond socializing.

Music is very deep. It touches the neshama. What songs will they be singing? What rhythms? What messages? Are these songs that you want your daughter to immerse herself in and bring home? Can you get a specific list of songs and lyrics that will be taught?

My husband ran a choir. A good choir will have the children immersed in the songs and in the message/spirit of the songs.

My 5 year old daughter had a substitute that taught them a few Yiddish songs. My daughter has a rough understanding of Yiddish. Nevertheless, months later, she's still singing those songs.

Music can have a very strong effect on children.

MagentaYenta

Thu, Jul 09 2015, 12:47 am

My DD went to public school and her music teacher asked her to audition for the community girls choir. She did and was invited to join in the 8th grade. It was a wonderful experience for her and really helped her musical education and helped her learn to be a team player. The choir did both a spring and winter concerts. Their music was secular because that's how it works in liberal blue towns where everyone isn't xtian. There were Hindu and Moslem girls in the choir and two girls who had DS. The entire choir had input into their programs and the music that was performed. My DD stayed with the choir through Freshman year and then moved on to other interests. During the time she was in choir she improved her math skills, became proficient in sight reading music and taught herself to play both the piano and guitar. It didn't cause her to eat a single cheeseburger.

DrMom

Thu, Jul 09 2015, 12:54 am

amother wrote:

I think the fact that they will be singing xmas songs in a church on Shabbat is reason enough to not allow your daughter to participate.

See if you can find some alternative activity; perhaps private singing lessons? Or maybe there is a group of other girls fro her school who would like to hire a voice instructor for semi-private lessons?

imasinger

Thu, Jul 09 2015, 8:00 am

It is really, really frustrating not to be able to perform with the group after practicing with them.

A 7 year old doesn't have the seichel to realize just how hard it will be.

I'm all for most things musical, but this may be more of a deterrent to future musical growth than anything else.

No to mention a deterrent for religious growth, because she may start to resent Shabbos.

If she loves singing, maybe there is a non frum synagogue with a children's choir? You might still have Shabbos issues, but they would possibly be easier to work around.

salt

Thu, Jul 09 2015, 8:10 am

Would she have to join the secular/non-Jewish choir because there is no frum choir in your area, or because there are no frum kids at all in your area.
If the former is the case, ie. there just doesn't exist a choir for frum girls, then start one up. Advertise and get other like minded girls and a choir leader.
If the latter is the case, I don't think I would allow it, and she would just be disappointed and embarrassed, not to be allowed to perform in the recitals.

amother

Brown

Thu, Jul 09 2015, 8:16 am

I would suggest HaZamir over this. They aren't frum, but they're Jewish, so no Xmas songs or Shabbos performances, and there will be some other frum kids. I was in HaZamir as a kid and it was a great experience. They are mixed, but it sounds like you don't have an issue with that (at this age). They have chapters all over the country. Not sure if they go this young though. I don't remember what age I started.

Ruchel

Thu, Jul 09 2015, 9:45 am

I'm having this problem just now. Someone is setting up Ladino activities and unfortunately it's very secular, on pics the kids are untzius, no kippa. The food may or not be kosher, or worse when they think it is, and you don't want to upset older/possible Shoah survivors etc with questions and hounding...

I decided they're not going.

amother

Magenta

Thu, Jul 09 2015, 10:43 am

amother wrote:

This I appreciate. I can understand this and convinced me to not have her join the choir. I hope we'll be able to start a Jewish choir.

kenz

Thu, Jul 09 2015, 2:58 pm

amother wrote:

Thanks Kenz for your reply. What are some of your many reasons?

Sorry, just saw this (working hours). Okay, for starters, kol isha would be a problem for me, but beyond that, being a part of such a bonding experience with people from so many different cultures is not something I would chance. I went to secular college and even in a class I attended just a couple of times a week, I saw how easy it would have been to fall into a deep friendship with someone of a whole different faith. A young child is not old enough to protect herself from outside influences to such an extent, and riding bikes outside with your non-Jewish neighbor is not remotely like being a part of a cohesive group like a choir. Plus she wouldn't get the satisfaction of the performances, which might cause her to resent Shabbos, and there is also a problem with being in a church. Also, as someone else said, music is powerfully connected to the neshamah.
I do hope you are able to find her a wonderful outlet for her talents and creativity.