Going into evangelical church

sequoia

Sun, Jul 12 2015, 7:10 pm

Still don't understand why that's not allowed. There are no statues, icons, or images like in catholic or orthodox churches. No crosses. Nothing. The "sanctuary" is just a room with chairs and an overhead projector.

So halachically why can't you go in?

Yeah I get that christianity is a false religion, but so is islam, and we can go into mosques.

sequoia

Sun, Jul 12 2015, 7:19 pm

youngishbear wrote:

Do they believe in the trinity?

Yes, that's part of the deal.

But the reason we can't go into roman or eastern churches isn't because of what they believe, but because of idolatrous images and statues.

Am I wrong?

WriterMom

Sun, Jul 12 2015, 7:42 pm

sequoia wrote:

Who said you're allowed to go into mosques?

Not saying you're wrong, not at all, but it's never come up for me, and I had just assumed it's not allowed to go into mosques. (Or churches.) So if you can share what you've been taught I'd be grateful.

sequoia

Sun, Jul 12 2015, 8:56 pm

WriterMom wrote:

AFAIK it's explicitly allowed not only to go into mosques but also to pray there.

imachossid

Sun, Jul 12 2015, 9:16 pm

The difference between a Christianity & Islam is that Muslims only believe in one g-d while Christians don't. A church has avoda zara while a mosque doesn't which is why you're allowed to go into a mosque but not allowed to go into a church. They're both false religions, but there is a lot of differences between them.

youngishbear

Sun, Jul 12 2015, 9:27 pm

imachossid wrote:

I thought this was the reason.

The pictures and symbols represent their beliefs, but even if the symbols aren't there it's still a place of worship of avodah zara.

I always thought the Christians consider themselves montheists, though. Wouldn't such a statement be insulting?

MagentaYenta

Sun, Jul 12 2015, 9:31 pm

youngishbear wrote:

Xtians do consider themselves monotheists. Most non Jewish scholars believe them to be monotheists as well. Evangelicals put a bit of a different spin on it.

imachossid

Sun, Jul 12 2015, 9:33 pm

youngishbear wrote:

I always thought the Christians consider themselves montheists, though. Wouldn't such a statement be insulting?

I don't know what they consider themselves …nor do I think it matters if we're insulting them Rolling Eyes

The fact is that they believe in Trinity which is not monotheism!

youngishbear

Sun, Jul 12 2015, 9:33 pm

I guess the whole concept of not being allowed into their "holy place" is insulting. As is calling it a false religion.

LOL

Eta: I see we crossposted.

I guess this must have been the basis of many a theological debate between priests and rabbis we read about in Jewish folklore.

Last edited by youngishbear on Sun, Jul 12 2015, 9:35 pm; edited 1 time in total

Iymnok

Sun, Jul 12 2015, 9:35 pm

MagentaYenta wrote:

Xtians do consider themselves monotheists. Most non Jewish scholars believe them to be monotheists as well. Evangelicals put a bit of a different spin on it.

They can claim want, Halacha says one God, not three that are one. They call that monotheism, we call it A"Z.

youngishbear

Sun, Jul 12 2015, 9:38 pm

imachossid wrote:

Exactly. And it's not our place to worry about insulting them LOL

Yeah, weird choice of words. embarrassed

I guess my point was, if sequoia needs to give a polite excuse to a friend or colleague, maybe debating this point is not the most diplomatic way to go.

imachossid

Sun, Jul 12 2015, 9:46 pm

youngishbear wrote:

Yeah, weird choice of words. embarrassed

I guess my point was, if sequoia needs to give a polite excuse to a friend or colleague, maybe debating this point is not the most diplomatic way to go.

I see what you're saying... I have a relative that married a non-jew & they got married in a church on shabbos. We explained to her that we love her despite what she's doing & we accept the way she is, this doesn't mean that we are happy that this was what she chose to do, but unfortunately we aren't able to attend the wedding because of the above reasons Sad

She respected & understood what we said.

m in Israel

Mon, Jul 13 2015, 2:45 am

sequoia wrote:

Yes, that's part of the deal.

But the reason we can't go into roman or eastern churches isn't because of what they believe, but because of idolatrous images and statues.

Am I wrong?

I believe this is not correct. It IS about their beliefs, as one is not allowed to go into a house of worship for Avodah Zorah, regardless of the presence of specific images. As others have said, the crux of the question is not whether their religion is "wrong" (which would obviously apply equally to Muslims), but whether it has the halachic status of "avodah zarah" which has much stricter guidelines.

Islam does not have any components that would be considered Avodah Zarah, so going into a Mosque would be less problematic. Christianity is much more complex. Basically it is a question of "avodah zorah bishitif" -- believing in Hashem combined with other beliefs. As far as that there are different opinions as to if it constitutes actual Avodah Zorah, and this may in fact be different for a non-Jew (in terms of their obligations under the 7 mitzvos Bnai Noach) and a Jew. And of course on the other end, there is no question that it would be assur to go into a Hindu temple or the like where the religion is clearly Avodah Zorah.

This link summarizes some of the issues:

http://www.torah.org.il/advanc......html