Moving out of Israel - to NY or London area??

cutie81

Tue, Jul 14 2015, 8:45 am

HI moms,
I am a mother of 6 (bli ayin hara) my oldest being 14 (going into highschool) and my youngest 3.
We all are US citizens, my husband and kids have also an EU citizenship.
I am originally from New York, and my husband grew up in Israel. DH has a sister that lives in Golders Green.
We are thinking about moving out of Israel, and are debating between either the NY/NJ area or London.
I would love to hear what real people living there say, and maybe even some of you had made this type of move and can help?
Thanks...

amother

Babypink

Tue, Jul 14 2015, 10:35 am

I am from London originally and also lived in NY.

Things to consider:

How easy it would be for you to get UK/EU citizenship. This seems to have gotten a lot harder recently even for spouses of UK citizens. Ironically it may be easier for a spouse of another EU country to get permission to live and work in the UK then a spouse of a UK citizen.

Cost of schooling - many schools in London are state subsidised so they are cheaper, but not all of them. You may want to send to a private school if the subsidised ones are not your derech.

Cost of housing and living in London vs NY. Housing probably similarly expensive in both NY and London.

It is much cheaper to fly to Israel from London, if that is important to you.

How easy it is to make friends in London. (I've heard it can be difficult, especially in more established areas like Hendon or Golders Green)

DO you have family in NY?

amother

Babypink

Tue, Jul 14 2015, 10:51 am

nylon wrote:

london is actually more expensive than NY now.

Secondary school in the UK starts at 11, make sure you can get a place for a 14yo. This will be tricky as at 14 they are starting their GCSE courses. The US might be easier schooling wise but more expensive.

A 14 year old might be fine to get a place in school. Later will be more difficult. GCSEs are done in Year 11, when they are 15 turning 16. So presuming OPs child is entering Year 10 they might be ok with a bit of tutoring in some subjects.

cutie81

Tue, Jul 14 2015, 11:34 am

ok,
so to answer all your questions.
I have family in NY/NJ and DH has a sister in GG.
We are considering moving for various reasons.
1. financiall it is very hard. even with making a decent income for Israel and living in a small yishuv and hardly paying rent, it is still very tight and standards of living in Israel is very low. The bare necessities use up all our money!!
2.We both love helping people and working with people and we felt it hard to grow in that in Israel. We don't know how much more we can grow with that in NY or UK, but we feel there are definitely more opportunites...
3. I have been struggling living in Israeli society for years, and it does not get easier...I do however feel that I am no longer American yet not really Israeli either.

We were considering London over Ny for 2 reasons - 1. I feel that it is less materialistic - the kids are not as "high maintenance" ans New Yrkers are 2. My BIL runs a kiruv organization in London and that could be a big help in getting involved - which is ultimately the direction we both want to go in.

chatz

Tue, Jul 14 2015, 11:44 am

Culturally, NY is closer to Israel than London. There's also many Israelis living in NY, much more than in London. Maybe some UK amothers could chime in, but I feel that your Israeli husband and Israeli kids would be more comfortable in NY/NJ than London.

Financially, both London and NY are very expensive areas to live in. Where are you more likely to have job opportunities?

Mrs Bissli

Tue, Jul 14 2015, 2:04 pm

First and foremost: If considering London, MAKE SURE YOU CAN GET SCHOOL PLACES FOR CHILDREN before moving, UNLESS you consider home schooling. This is critical especially for primary school (ages 4-11) as there are shortages. Partially subsidised schools (voluntary aided or academy) application needs to be through local council and the supplementary forms to the school. there is one school in Hendon that teaches LK in Ivrit (IJDS, it's MO co-ed) that is popular with DL Israeli families.

There are MANY Israeli families in London. I feel it's more international (including Israeli) than NY. Not that surprising considering we're closer to Israel geographically.

Housing costs are not cheap, comparable to NY. There are neighbourhoods that are less expensive than GG like Borehamwood that seem to be attracting families with children. Though school tuitions are far less expensive than the US.

I think it's easier to get residency as an EU citizen spouse than a UK citizen spouse. Check gov.uk for immigration rules. They've tightened the rules so you may not be eligible for public assistance programmes.

shabbatiscoming

Tue, Jul 14 2015, 2:47 pm

cutie81 wrote:

Just to make you realize, in those places you mentioned, financially you will have to make MUCH more money to just break even or be comfortable. Think about that.
(I never understand when people move to a place where there are so many more and higher expenses and say they want to leave israel for financial reasons. I would understand if you were to be moving to a place that was not such high expenses. Sorry, I just never understand this)

cutie81

Wed, Jul 15 2015, 3:12 am

Thank you everyone for all your responses. I don't mind living out of town but feel that my older kids won't have proper schooling, social life, etc. Financially I feel that all basic necessities are cheaper. Even rent seems to be cheaper than jerusalem (for what you get)-I was looking at a house in passaic online. Tuition is more expensive, but the percentage of the Income that goes to tuition, seems to be lower. The standard of living in chul is higher so even if you are struggling you are still more comfortable.
Can any ny/nj/ct ppl givee me a breakdown of expenses?
TIA

5mom

Wed, Jul 15 2015, 3:27 am

cutie81 wrote:

2.We both love helping people and working with people and we felt it hard to grow in that in Israel. We don't know how much more we can grow with that in NY or UK, but we feel there are definitely more opportunites...

This struck me as being strange. Do you feel that there are no opportunities for working with people in Israel? Or do you mean that you could do kiruv work in London or New York and earn a better salary? It's very hard to make it in large cities when you are in klei kodesh.

Also, Israeli life is almost always simpler than even the most laid back community in chu"l. I am sorry to hear that you are struggling here, but unless you have qualifications for well paying jobs in NY or London, it's not obvious that the move will help. Not to mention what it takes for kids to adjust.

Sorry, I wish I could be more encouraging.

hila

Wed, Jul 15 2015, 4:05 am

And you are talking gashmiut!
What about the spiritual benefits here ?
London or NY can never give 1% of the beauty of the chagim here. The kdusha of our holy places and the holy air of EY.
And believe me - I have spent Shabbat in GG - gashmiut rules! Whether it is the clothing, the housing, the decorations, or the food. THere is built in competition. Even teh kiddushim (simplest one) have expensive imports as part of them.
And the lack of longing for EY is hurtful (to me at least).

Maybe tell us a few more details about your problems here and we can help. (BeH)

salt

Wed, Jul 15 2015, 4:20 am

shabbatiscoming wrote:

In London/NY the expenses are higher, but the salaries are higher. I have friends in London who earn the same figure in pounds as I earn in shekels!
But together with that, comes higher cost of living. So I guess it evens out Smile

amother

Azure

Wed, Jul 15 2015, 5:15 am

Many of my friends in Hendon and GG are Israeli, or one of the couple is and intending on going back at some point. Gashmius does not rule except in a few groups and many many live v modestly and are v friendly with block or street ahavas yisrael shabbat groups and children running in and out of each others homes, people stopping to chat on shabbat afternoon walks and we often get invited in to share a spontaneous seuda when we bump into friends or aquaintances, which consist of no more than a coffee and some cake on plastic and great company!

Idk too much about schools though. Just wanted to put the other viewpoint about NWLondon. Lots of israelis, loads of people who live there and here for different periods in their lives and lots of ivrit spoken on the streets, and really not so much gashmius outside certain groups, who I certainly don't have anything to do with.

amother

Beige

Wed, Jul 15 2015, 5:31 am

I have a friend - both her and her husband are from the U.S. And made Aliyah and lived in Israel for 13 years. Last year they moved back to NY. My friend said to me she hates it and it's one more year and then they are moving back to Israel. And these are not charedi people. Think typical tel aviv people who work in high tech.

myself

Wed, Jul 15 2015, 5:40 am

Mrs Bissli wrote:

I second the bolded.