Does judaism believe in physical compatibility????

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amother

Cyan

Fri, Jul 17 2015, 3:12 pm

I do NOT want your opinion. I want halacha with quoted sources, and facts, not what you think.

I know of various couples that have a horrible s-xual compatibility. I am not talking about different libidos as many marriages have that. I am talking about things that the man or woman want/need that the other partner will not give. For example, a wife loves kissing and the man hates it. She never, ever gets kisses or hugs or substitute for whatever it is she needs to feel loved since he does not like doing it. So yes, he can maybe very rarely and unhappily do whatever it is she wants, but this is not what makes her feel loved and special. Or vice versa, the man desires something done to him and his wife will not do that or try it because she does not like it.

In the nonJewish world, you first are physical and live together and then get married. If you don't fulfill each others' needs, you don't move forward in the relationship. Again, I am not talking about how often you are intimate, although I know that is a major issue on its own. I am referring to different love languages. I crave a lot of kisses and physical touch, my husband does not like doing that. It severely affects my marriage as my whole life I dreamed of being kissed and being loved and it never happens.

I do not want solutions or answers to how to work on this or fix it or give to each other. I want a halachic answer if Judaism believes that there is such as physical compatibility or if shomer negiah assumes that s-xual needs are irrelevant and don't matter.

amother

Forestgreen

Fri, Jul 17 2015, 3:36 pm

While I don't have a specific answer for you , I need to point out that there is major middle ground between the two alternatives you give. It is possible for the Torah to say that two people don't have to be matched/compatible when they come into marriage, but that they are required to figure out how to make it work for both of them because it does matter. Some couples would find that harder than others.

I imagine that the answer lies somewhere in the Torah's requirement that a husband satisfy his wife.

So you don't think I'm on a high horse, I am having this exact problem in my marriage as well.

PinkFridge

Fri, Jul 17 2015, 3:41 pm

This will be interesting to follow. Because halacha generally doesn't say, and if you do it this way it should work out well, you should have no problems.
Halacha does address trying to please one's spouse. While halacha talks about a man's onah objections, it's kind of understood that you make your spouse happy within halacha.

I'm not sure why the secular world's reversed schedule is relevant. Because I don't know if living together offers the depth needed to develop a relationship. Sure, they know what pleases them in bed but there's not the commitment factor, the knowledge that each party loves the other and will be there for them. So living together might be educational, but it's not foolproof.

Anyway, I really have to go. TBC and have a great Shabbos!

ETA: OP, I hope I'm not annoying. Amother just above me (we cross-posted) gave you a really good, thought-provoking answer.

Last edited by PinkFridge on Fri, Jul 17 2015, 4:09 pm; edited 1 time in total

sequoia

Fri, Jul 17 2015, 3:56 pm

At a certain age, secular couples also move forward even if everything isn't as they would like.

miami85

Fri, Jul 17 2015, 4:42 pm

In a nutshell, the answer is not really. Read the books "The Jewish way in Love and Marriage" by Rabbi Maurice Lamm and "Finding and Keeping your Bashert" by Rabbi Shafier, as well as his Marriage seminar. They have a lot of sources to numerous to mention in this forum. I will give over what those books say in a nutshell--I can't gurantee, but most of this is from their books, not my opinion. The Torah explicitly states in the Torah that a man shall not be with a woman whom is not his wife. There is also a LOT of hashkafa revolving around this topic. A man was allowed to make a woman his wife through a relations-first method but that method was not condoned by chazal, and I believe the man got lashes for it. Your bashert is the one whom HaShem wants to marry that will enable fulfill your life's mission or for maximum growth--relations or not. That's why many times "opposites attract" and we don't see the whole picture before we are married. Love is built in a relationship not a starting point. Yes, you are supposed to marry someone to whom there is an attraction, but "physcial compatibility" is not a starting factor--considering that most of bnos yisroel aren't really aware of their reproductive anatomy until already engaged--otherwise--boy that would make for some really awkward lounge conversation. We already do Dor Yesharim to rule out chromosomal incompatibility, how would you "test" for physical compatibility without being "over" on shomer nigiyah? Make anatomy molds? What

??? I've seen 6'4" men marry 5'1" women--and have LOTS of kids, so they apparently didn't have "compatibility issues". We date to determine "chemistry" which would deal with phermones. So how would you go about proving compatibility? Get pregnant first? What

?? Once you're married you figure it out. If there is a physical issue, go to a doctor.
If chazal would have felt that this was a proper way to decide shidduchim then they would have given exceptions to the rules regarding negiyah, but they didn't--even if you are an adoptive parent its not so clear cut. Perhaps HaShem gives a couple difficulties so that they will learn to communicate better, to help control their urges, to help them develop other middos, to learn to accept help from others or any number of reasons which HaShem has concocted but hasn't told me--I'm no niviah. Living with each other before marriage has actually been considered as a contributing to a HIGHER rate of divorce. A relationship solely based on "physical compatibility" fizzles out once that compatibility dwindles (I.e. after kids, after weight gain, middle age etc.).
I remember our first night and we were kissing and it incredibly awkward because I'd never associated kissing with a man before--it was something I'd seen in movies, but never thought I'd do that. It took me time to like it and now I love it. Loving is about GIVING to another person and getting over your hang-ups. My husband had a rebbe who gave him a private "marriage shmooze" before marriage and told him "come back after a few months"--about intimacy, he went back and the rebbe said "no one, besides him, has come back". If there are compatibility issues--seek help! IF one doesn't like kissing or something else, delve into why? Is there a bad association? Does the person smell? You are supposed to work on your issues so that you CAN love your spouse not just say "it doesn't work , lets divorce" or be miserable.

amother

Smokey

Fri, Jul 17 2015, 6:18 pm

I don't know if "compatibility" is a permanent thing all by itself. I think it comes and goes at different time, and like any other part of marriage it needs effort and attention to succeed.

singleagain

Fri, Jul 17 2015, 6:38 pm

Quote:

In the nonJewish world, you first are physical and live together and then get married. If you don't fulfill each others' needs, you don't move forward in the relationship.

I think that is a gross overgeneralization. while yea, a lot of people do engage in physical activities before marriage, I don't know that you can say most

Quote:

--considering that most of bnos yisroel aren't really aware of their reproductive anatomy until already engaged--

again... I'm sorry, most are you srsly telling me girls grow up not knowing their basic biology? what do you tell them when they enter puberty and things start changing?

amother

Natural

Fri, Jul 17 2015, 7:17 pm

Just by the way, statistically speaking, those who live together before marriage are not having amazing marriages. The statistics suggest otherwise.

miami85

Fri, Jul 17 2015, 7:23 pm

singleagain wrote:

Quote:

In the nonJewish world, you first are physical and live together and then get married. If you don't fulfill each others' needs, you don't move forward in the relationship.

I think that is a gross overgeneralization. while yea, a lot of people do engage in physical activities before marriage, I don't know that you can say most

Quote:

--considering that most of bnos yisroel aren't really aware of their reproductive anatomy until already engaged--

again... I'm sorry, most are you srsly telling me girls grow up not knowing their basic biology? what do you tell them when they enter puberty and things start changing?

Of course I knew the "anatomy" but I was euphemistically referring to the ins and outs of how everything worked together,in the context of a Jewish marriage--not really.

amother

Cyan

Fri, Jul 17 2015, 8:09 pm

Honestly, I am not blaming dh for this issue as he could not have known it before marriage. However, he rarely wants intimacy and is okay with like never and if I beg, then once a month. While yes, I do believe something is wrong, he is fine with it.

So if I knew before marriage, would it have been shallow to say no? I do not think so as of right now I am living with a roommate. We share bills and responsibilities but have almost zero s-xual interaction. So you can say what you want, but if I had known this I would not want to live in a marriage with no physical relationship. I cannot force him to get help but I do feel like not touching before marriage leads to problems like this. I wish he would care to solve it but because it is such a sensitive, personal, and private area, there is no one he wants to speak to.

I definitely feel like while most couples can and do work it out, there are definitely some like me that suffer due to not knowing what their spouse will be like after marriage.

causemommysaid

Fri, Jul 17 2015, 8:16 pm

I don't believe so. If zxual compatibility was considered an important factor in Jewish marriage then premarital sx would be a requirement instead of a prohibition.

Personally, I don't think it's the most important thing either. Obviously there should be some compatibility but it's not everything.

amother

Ginger

Fri, Jul 17 2015, 8:21 pm

I've had secular "live in" relationships in the past. In my current marriage we were totally shomer negiah until after the chuppah. I can honestly say that I prefer being with someone before the marriage, even though I know it is totally against Torah.

If I knew half of what I know now about our physical incompatibility, I never would have married DH. Zex is extremely painful for me, and he is just plain too big. He also doesn't believe in f0replay, hates kissing, or any other sort of affection.

I would not encourage my DD to be intimate before marriage - but if she was, I wouldn't judge her for it at all. Not even a little bit. It's a terrible conundrum. Sad

MagentaYenta

Fri, Jul 17 2015, 8:55 pm

Argh, I never should read these threads. It's so sad to read about s-xual dysfunction in our community day in and day out. What are we doing wrong that so many women in our community are denied s-xual pleasure and so many of the men are prone to PE?

Why can't it at least become permissible for couples to discuss these matters before hand? It doesn't have to be graphic, a woman can say she looks forward to cuddling and kissing. A man can say he is adverse to touch or is sensory.

amother

Copper

Sat, Jul 18 2015, 3:07 pm

It's funny bc I joke with dh about how we are completely different in everything including bed and how we should have discussed it beforehand (but I never would have, I didn't even want him to know when engaged I was on the pill, private info I thought... Lol). He loves kissing and action and I hate kissing, always just want to cuddle. We haven't been married for too long so can't tell you but it has def encouraged and fostered very deep and sometimes awkward communication btwn us. We are forced to be honest with each other and what we like, as we figure each other out. OP sorry that you feel stuck in your situation

amother

Copper

Sat, Jul 18 2015, 3:11 pm

MagentaYenta wrote:

A, I would never have even wanted to have this convo, b I wouldn't know what to say. All my reading of romance and sometimes almost [filth] like books made me think I would love an actual physical life yet I never would have imagined that I actually hate kissing. Why would someone who is shomer even know what they would like. I'm not a touchy person and don't hug or touch my friends as much as some of them do yet I love any affectionate touch from dh. So I don't see how if even we had discussed it, it would be applicable.

amother

Violet

Sat, Jul 18 2015, 3:32 pm

I am not a halacha expert.
But from what I have learned, the torah/ halach/ Rabbanim gives guidelines and makes a point for a man to treat his wife a certain way so that she will be satisfied.
* it is mentioned that a man should be with his wife at least twice a week
* a man should kiss and hug his wife before doing the deed so that she should feel loved

A true ben torah will make his wife feel loved and happy so that they will have emotional and from that physical compatibility.

Benevolence

Sat, Jul 18 2015, 6:12 pm

The following is derived from R' Avraham Israel's book from 2012 Ve'ein Lamo Mikhshol

Not fulfilling and providing for Mitzvat Onah is
Bitul Torah.
Masechet brachot 28
Rabbi Elazar Ben Azaria consults his wife if to become Nasie. Initially she disapproves but agrees later. Since Onat Nasie is once a month being a very demanding job - he had to have her consent for Bitul Onatah.
Rambam Halachot Ishut - ch 14 no 7
one must learn this perticular Kium Mitzvah just like Tefilin Netilah or any other
Intentional and unintentional deprivation is an
Al Ta'ase transgression if done on purpose
Even Haezer siman 14
A problem MUST be addressed and taken care of
Harav Kanievsky "Hasteifler" HaOnah is from
Deorita just like Matzah - VeOnatah Lo Igra
No absolution for it even on Yom Hakippurim
Rashi Kidushin 19
Rashi on Masechet Shabbat page 452
Fulfilling Onah properly and with Kavanah - Shlom Bais
Rashi continues in parashat Vayetze
Not providing for Onah torments one's wife. By Din one must treat in order to better
Rambam offers in Sefer HaRefu'ot vol 4 page
49
Pat shachrit
Hamozie or at least mezont
Joy, amusement and laughter are very good for
Koach HaGavrah
Lament agony and grief
Fasting working and waking up too early hurts it
severly which evidently hurts Shlom Bais
Rabbi Yizhak Falagie - eat unsalted bolied lentils
Bracha Vehatzlacha b"H!
On a personal note - It gets much much better

amother

Cyan

Sat, Jul 18 2015, 9:41 pm

for any amother who says they would have still married their dh anyway and you don't say no to someone because of kissing, are you ready and willing starting today TO NEVER, EVER AGAIN hug or kiss your dh once ever in your life? Because that is what I live with. I BEG for a kiss. So yes, physical compatibility is not a little something to work out, it is HUGE if it is an issue.

amother

Forestgreen

Sat, Jul 18 2015, 10:24 pm

I don't think it's little at all. I'm on the other side from you. Kissing makes me nauseous, and many types of romantic touch give me a sickening creepy crawly feeling; nothing to do with dh's hygiene or the like.

I too read a million novels before and thought I would love it. And I faked loving it for years, first because I thought I had to like it to be normal and doing it would get me there. But that doesn't always work, so then I faked for dh's sake, and eventually it all became too much. Because the thing about intimacy is that you don't just need to do it, you need to either like it or not hate it.

So I totally get you, op, on the severity of it. I often feel stuck. But I have to say, I had boyfriends with whom I wasn't shomer negiah in high school, and I didn't like kissing then either but still did it and didn't end any relationships because of it; I figured love would conquer all. It took years for dh and I to reach an impasse. I wouldn't have known before or decided differently.

I am stuck at other things in life too. Dh and I together are stuck at some other things. I guess this is another. I have hope, because before marriage there were things I always assumed my dh would do that I needed to feel cared for. He has shown himself incapable of some of them, so I have learned over the years to find the caring in the ways he gives it, and that was really hard. I hope we will solve this too.

amother

Blue

Sat, Jul 18 2015, 10:52 pm

amother wrote:

I hear you.

My husband and I were totally SN before marriage. Both with each other and with those we dated before we met. That said, we talked about s*x and intimacy. I thought we were on the same page, that we both wanted a marriage with a healthy (and frequent) s*x life. How did I get it wrong? I don't know which came first for us, the chicken or the egg. Did we have infrequent s*x because neither of us enjoyed it as much as we thought we would, or were we not enjoying it because we weren't doing it enough. And niddah (2 weeks on and off) certainly didn't help (with the momentum) As a newlywed, I didn't need the 'excitement' of mikvah night. Shana rishona, it's all exciting! I needed continuity and a rhythm. To figure out how to incorporate s*x into our lives. To learn, to practice. To communicate and share.

Oh, and of course, my husband doesn't like kissing. Found that out pretty early. When I asked him about this (because, what? Kissing is called first base for a reason. It's everyone's starting off point. If he weren't frum, there would be no such thing as 'not liking' kissing! It's what you do, it's what's expected) he made it clear he didn't like it. Couldn't really explain why, but here we are, several years in. No kissing. I get hugs and cuddles. But s*x without kissing? I honestly don't think about how heart breakingly disappointing it is, because then I wouldn't stop thinking about it. How ironic it is that after being SN in all my years of dating, my pot of gold is the husband who doesn't kiss. And then I wonder, would I have wanted to know? And I tell myself, no. Because I WOULD have married him anyway. He's my soul mate. I know that. There was no one who came close. I dated a lot, and for YEARS. There is no one else. And if I KNEW on the day of my wedding that I would be entering a largely s*xually incompatible relationship, I would have been a wreck. Ignorance was bliss. But oh how I judged my non SN friends. And now I know, joke's on me. I also would encourage my daughter to be SN because it's halacha. But for no other reason. I'm proud that I was SN, but my s'char is certainly not in olam hazeh, not in anyway related to s*x or intimacy.

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