Does judaism believe in physical compatibility????

amother

Cyan

Sat, Jul 18 2015, 11:49 pm

amother wrote:

Oh, and of course, my husband doesn't like kissing. Found that out pretty early. When I asked him about this (because, what? Kissing is called first base for a reason. It's everyone's starting off point. If he weren't frum, there would be no such thing as 'not liking' kissing! It's what you do, it's what's expected) he made it clear he didn't like it. Couldn't really explain why, but here we are, several years in. No kissing. I get hugs and cuddles. But s*x without kissing? I honestly don't think about how heart breakingly disappointing it is, because then I wouldn't stop thinking about it. How ironic it is that after being SN in all my years of dating, my pot of gold is the husband who doesn't kiss. And then I wonder, would I have wanted to know? And I tell myself, no. Because I WOULD have married him anyway. He's my soul mate. I know that. There was no one who came close. I dated a lot, and for YEARS. There is no one else. And if I KNEW on the day of my wedding that I would be entering a largely s*xually incompatible relationship, I would have been a wreck. Ignorance was bliss. But oh how I judged my non SN friends. And now I know, joke's on me. I also would encourage my daughter to be SN because it's halacha. But for no other reason. I'm proud that I was SN, but my s'char is certainly not in olam hazeh, not in anyway related to s*x or intimacy.

This is OP. Amother, your post is sooooooo incredibly validating. I feel like you understand me to my core - you just get what it is like to live with this day in and day out. My perspective is more bitter than yours that my being so strict with SN led me to this but yours is so healthy - to think about the s'char you will get for suffering in this life without kisses and feeling loved the way you want, sacrificing to be religious.
Thank you so much for sharing!

amother

Vermilion

Sun, Jul 19 2015, 12:15 am

I'm going to come at this from a completely different angle.

Clearly Judaism doesn't believe in physical compatibility. Other posters have mentioned a man's duty to his wife, but other than that, it's simply not part of the shidduch scene.

Instead of looking at it this way of could I have prevented it by not being SN or whatever, you need to look toward the future. How do you cope with this nisayon? Second-guessing the method that got you here is not beneficial and unhealthy in any way. If you are a ma'amin, you believe that Hashem predestined this fate for you. It's not like you did something wrong to have gotten here, so there's no self-blame: It's all on Him.

When you realize that whatever happens is from Hashem, you can better deal with the situation. You can consult with da'as torah more effectively. You get rid of the bitterness and focus on the practical: what to do now about it.

Everyone has nisyonos, don't kid yourself into thinking you could have prevented this. This is so clearly your nisayon, and the only question is how you deal with it.

(Getting off the podium now.)

[/mussar shmooze]

amother

Coffee

Sun, Jul 19 2015, 12:20 am

Op, my heart goes out to you and I can literally feel the pain and disappointment on your posts. I cannot relate to the specifics of what you mention but I can relate to your feelings. I was so excited for physical touch, affection, and intimacy after being completely shomer negiah all my life. However, after getting married, there was and still is so much work that dh and I have to put into our physical relationship which I feel like would not be the case if I was with someone else. And I obviously could not have known any if this since dh and I had never even hugged or held hands. It is extremely difficult especially since we have learned all our life that being sn is the best thing for a marriage which made us think our physical relationship in our marriages would be a perfect fairytale. I often felt let down and disappointed in the beginning but bH things have gotten better. Do you have a mentor you could confide in? Is your marriage relatively good in other ways? Does your husband satisfy you in other ways?

amother

Goldenrod

Sun, Jul 19 2015, 12:24 am

Now that a poster has taken the first slot at the podium, I'll be second.

I'm married to a s-x addict. S-x with him (for the many years I tried to make it work) was unpleasant, I felt used and we were incompatible in every way you can imagine.

I used to think I got stuck with him because of the shidduch system. Until I met wives of SAs who picked their own husbands, not through a shadchan. So I though it was the no premarital s-x rules that did us in. Then finally I met women Jewish or not, who dated for years, had s-x before tying the knot and still ended up married to a cheating wife-using addict.

So my theory is out the window, and dear OP, while I feel your pain, please remember that whatever you choose to blame your unhappiness on is only an illusion. The reality you face now has no "road not taken" that would have prevented it, and it's useless to travel backwards as it only destroys your serenity.

I hope things get easier for you. Hug

amother

Orchid

Sun, Jul 19 2015, 12:48 am

OP, I am so sorry for your pain, as well as many others expressed here.

I will go out on a limb here. I do not believe in "physical incompatibility". I do not believe that our physical preferences, which are combinations of personality traits, life experiences, hormone levels, current stressors, having young kids, and other factors, are static and unchanging throughout life. (I'm not referring here to SA which is a total different subject.)

A 35 year old woman with 5 kids may not even recognize her 22 year old newly-married self, as far as physical /bedroom preferences. Iow, even had you been physical prior to marriage, and thought you were 100% "compatible" then, that can certainly change with time.

Just google "divorce rate" and "s*xual dissatisfaction". In fact, I just did and came across this article reporting a study that people who've had MORE s*x partners prior to marriage have LESS happy marriages. You'd expect the opposite--after trying it out with so many prospective spouses first, and only marrying, presumably, someone with whom you felt physically compatible, there'd be happier marriages, no?
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/......html

Regardless, difficulties, or "incompatibilities", can definitely be improved in this area. For situations where one spouse wants more, or has greater needs than the other, I highly recommend the book, The SX Starved Marriage, by Michelle Weiner Davis.

Hatzlocha!

amother

Azure

Sun, Jul 19 2015, 1:17 am

I don't believe that judIsm believes in physical compatibility. But I also think we as women have become more educated/empowered/enlightened and want more from our marriages than women in the past.

To me the fact that the secular world has a higher divorce rate is not a significant factor in arguments because the reality is that in the frum community unhappy
couples just stay together for many reasons. so that's that.

Regarding the issue at hand, I am torn. I do believe in physical compatibility- I saw it myself through trial and error- and my husband and I have bh a very good bedroom life. I am someone with a hearty relations appetite and am adventurous and needed someone similar.

That being said, the process of that
Trial and error before my husband had some real ups and downs that I don't miss at all....

Then agAin, I do think I am someone who likes drama and needed to sow some wild oats before settling down to the "boring" routine of married life. maybe that what was best for me and my growth...

PinkFridge

Sun, Jul 19 2015, 8:29 am

MagentaYenta wrote:

Argh, I never should read these threads. It's so sad to read about s-xual dysfunction in our community day in and day out. What are we doing wrong that so many women in our community are denied s-xual pleasure and so many of the men are prone to PE?

Why can't it at least become permissible for couples to discuss these matters before hand? It doesn't have to be graphic, a woman can say she looks forward to cuddling and kissing. A man can say he is adverse to touch or is sensory.

There are a lot of us who don't like sharing details under our sn, and who generally don't go to certain forums, like intimacy. It might skew things; some of us old timers with healthy marriages, b"H might be able to offer a lot, at the very least make things less demoralizing for you ;-)

ETA: my first post largely addressed living together. There's the matter of SN. I don't have personal experience in not being SN but observations, reading, etc. make me wonder something: unless there's some level of commitment, there's probably a dance being done - Will I be overbearing if I say I want/like/need? Will s/he read too much into things? Are we taking this to relationship level, not just a physical level?

This isn't to say that someone who is very aware of herself and needs, who may suspect she or her potential partner has sensory or social issues that might complicate marriage, can't ferret out potential problems before marriage. It is to say that there are limitations either way. There are limitations for people who are committed to doing things halachically and there are limitations for people who aren't - there's only so much they will find out.

IOW, and maybe this will be comforting to OP and others in similar situations, I don't think we can blame halacha. I don't know how much blame there is to assign leaving halacha aside. What might be best is to figure out what kind of action to take, how to find therapists who will be sensitive to traditional families, etc., and to daven for hatzlacha in taking these steps towards menuchas hanefesh and fulfillment.

amother

Violet

Sun, Jul 19 2015, 10:10 am

amother wrote:

If you are frum and keep the Halachos. It should not be the "boring routine" you should have a new excitment every month.

PinkFridge

Sun, Jul 19 2015, 2:13 pm

amother wrote:

[/b]

If you are frum and keep the Halachos. It should not be the "boring routine" you should have a new excitment every month.

B"H when that's so. But besides that, our posters are talking about other types of affectionate touch, throughout the day, and their issues aren't related to excitement but to personal boundaries, sensory issues, and the like.

ora_43

Sun, Jul 19 2015, 5:04 pm

I think Jewish thought does recognize the importance of s-xual attraction. Hence the need for couples to meet face-to-face before agreeing to marry, instead of just picking someone based on a list of criteria.

But you're talking about what people prefer s-xually, not just attraction.

Unfortunately I don't think there's any realistic way to test for s-xual preferences without having a committed relationship. If nothing else, because commitment itself (and married life, and children, etc) can change the nature of the relationship and of people's s-xual wants. IOW it's not like you could just "test drive."

I think the Jewish approach to that is generally that we control our behavior. The whole mitzvah of onah implies that people don't always want to have s-x when/how their spouse does, but that there's an obligation to make a certain amount of effort to please them anyway (with what that minimum is varying by situation). Not "do whatever they want," but definitely not "only do what you want," either.

So overall - s-xual needs are relevant, but meeting those needs is a matter of compromise, not just natural compatibility.

Sources: seeing before marriage - gemara, masechet kiddushin, mem aleph aleph (this is from a citation, I haven't checked the source myself)
source for the mitzvah of onah - also somewhere in kiddushin. Sorry I don't have a more specific source.

ora_43

Sun, Jul 19 2015, 5:22 pm

And since people are going ahead and sharing opinions on this thread - I think there's always a risk. Committing to marriage is a risk (maybe he'll turn out to be unkind, or irresponsible); not committing is a risk (maybe you'll miss out on a wonderful partnership). Committing without s-xual experience with that person is a risk (maybe there's some incompatibility that would have been obvious pretty much immediately); committing with s-xual experience is a risk (maybe decision-making was unduly influenced by hormones; maybe s-x was only good now because of new-relationship hormones and is going to be terrible down the line); s-xual activity without commitment is a risk.

I don't think that if Jewish tradition sees s-x as an only-within-marriage thing, that means s-xual compatibility is unimportant. It could just mean that something else is even more important.

I think it's worth noting that severe s-xual incompatibility can be cause for divorce in Judaism. I'm not suggesting that as a solution for anyone. I just think it belongs in the category of "s-x in halacha."

amother

Khaki

Sun, Jul 19 2015, 9:35 pm

I feel for OP and cyan as well as some others who are suffering and wanted to say
that I personally believe that even if people would have "tried their partner out" for physical compatibility how would one know that when married with x amount of kids or x hours at the job.... that their partner's libido and other z-xual preferences....would not change?? I know from my marriage with DH that my DH will act one way if he had off from work and had a chance to sleep more with regard to his z-xual preference that night while I also have less interest when my children were younger and I was working compared to when I was on vacation with older children....
Yes, maybe if I man would say he does not like kissing--would that change?? maybe or maybe not??
and yes I do feel your pain but if you would not have married DH for him not providing your need for kissing... How do you know you would not have found another really big flaw if you would have chosen a Different man for DH who did enjoy kissing but maybe his other flaw would make you feel needy in other ways??? I just think that sometimes in marriage we have to each do things for our spouse that we dont like to do but we DO IT FOR OUR SPOUSE!!this is hard to do and maybe your DH cant push himself to do it for you and that is why the halacha is that a man must please his wife physically too!!

This is the struggle of marriage and I feel for all of you who are suffering due to spouses who do not like to do things whether physically or emotionally ......and dont push themselves to do it for you leaving you feeling like your marriage is not fulfilling emotionally or physically.....
I hope things improve for you!!

amother

Firebrick

Sun, Jul 19 2015, 10:34 pm

This is an interesting topic for me, since my first marriage imploded not in small part due to physical imcompatibility. Like it really was all wrong between us. So I've definitely thought about this. And I feel that being shomer negiah can definitely be a disserve to marital satisfaction.

Another thing is that for better or worse, some of these things just do not come up in the secular world. For example, kissing is something that most secular people learn (and perfect) as teens. Its not acceptable to just skip kissing etc and just go to penetration as some women here describe since s-x is not on the table yet in many circles. So to men learn to please a women since s-x is not a given as it seems to be here from a wife. So there is that.

amother

Chocolate

Sun, Jul 19 2015, 11:12 pm

amother wrote:

I am sorry for your experience. I really am. And I hope you find the peace and happiness that is right for you.
However, I would look to those who have actually attained marital satisfaction and see what they have to say. By and large, those that have achieved it are saying the opposite of what you propose.
This is not to say that all who are SN have happy & fulfilling marriages. Not at all. But those that have Torah true marriages. Where the emphasis is on Torah, and Halacha and Middos, and part and parcel of that is the mitzvos of Bein adam l'chaveiro would not do away with an iota. Whether SN, Niddah, etc.
The Torah and mitzvos of Hashem are perfect. If it is not working, its time to look at ourselves.

imasoftov

Mon, Jul 20 2015, 11:48 am

I would like to see a primary source that clearly states that the mitzvah of onah places any obligation on the husband beyond intercourse or that he's not doing the mitzvah correctly so long as ejaculation takes place in the right place. I'm not saying that Chazal, Geonim, Rishonim or Acharonim didn't know about female org@sm, I want you to prove to me that they did.

Note: if you claim that the gemara that mentions אישה מזריעה means org@sm, you'll have to prove that it means that. Also if you quote a source about הנאה you'll have to show it meant org@sm, not woman feels good because husband shows he loves her by trying to get her pregnant.

If you show me a source involving a pair of snakes I'll assume that this rabbi was familiar with the Greek myth of Tiresias who was born a man, turned into a woman for seven years after interrupting a pair of snakes (possibly because this angered Hera) after which he turned back into a man (either by repeating or not repeating his act, this does resemble a bit the story about Rebbe's punishment (Baba Metzia 85a) for not having sympathy for a calf on the way to slaughter and his being healed thirteen years later after telling a maid to not disturb baby weasels, maybe if they were a couple of adult weasels ...). In another myth, Zeus and Hera debate which gender enjoys greater pleasure and they ask Tiresias to settle the argument, he sides with Zeus and says "of ten parts a man enjoys one only" , but I can't think of a rabbinic parallel to that. Maybe our "ten measures of speech were given to the world, and nine of them were allocated to women." (Kiddushin 49b)? Well, if that's a response, it's saying "forget pleasure, go talk among yourselves".

imasoftov

Mon, Jul 20 2015, 12:18 pm

I also can't think of a place where our tradition discusses different preferences in the bedroom, except for the one that compares women to food. Hmm, Rebbe is in that too. But his behavior there sounds more like with the calf than with the weasels. Shouldn't Hashem's "mercy over all his creatures" also extend apply to women?

Nedarim 20a

A woman once came before Rabbi and said, 'Rebbe, I set a table before my husband, but he overturned it.' (that could either mean the woman on top or backside, whichever, she didn't like it) Rebbe said: 'My daughter, the Torah permitted you to him — what can I do for you?'

A woman once came before Rav and complained. 'Rabbi! I set a table before my husband, but he overturned it.' Rav said; Wherein does it differ from a fish? (both Rashi and Ran explain this mean that if you buy a fish, you can cook it however you like)

In the aggadot which I've previously mentioned about Rav Chisda's advice to his daughters which is possibly about how to get their husbands to pleasure them, there is no recognition that there's more than one way to get to Chad Gadya (that's an expression invented at ishtetl.com), and in the one about Rav in his own bedroom (hmm, there too there's a reference to food - his student compares his enthusiasm to someone who has never tasted food before) we don't learn the specifics of what Rav was doing and whether this pleased his wife or whether all people are assumed to want the same thing in the bedroom.

bruriyah

Mon, Jul 20 2015, 2:27 pm

Imasoftov,

So there is no direct mention of female org@sm in the gemara or other early rabbinic literature? Hmmm, I didn't know this. I though it was a given that they would know. Why would they not know about female org@sm? How can that be?

Also, regarding the anecdote about the woman who says to Rebbe, "I set me table and my husband overturns it..." and Rebbe's response, is the implication that the woman should just suck it up and let her husband do whatever he wants anyway, regardless about how she feels about it?

Or is perhaps the woman is being all "frum" and tattling on her husband that he wants to do something not allowed and so the rabbi reassures her that it is allowed...?

I'm trying to understand what is going on with these gemaras.

amother

Bronze

Mon, Jul 20 2015, 2:45 pm

amother wrote:

Honestly, I am not blaming dh for this issue as he could not have known it before marriage. However, he rarely wants intimacy and is okay with like never and if I beg, then once a month. While yes, I do believe something is wrong, he is fine with it.

So if I knew before marriage, would it have been shallow to say no? I do not think so as of right now I am living with a roommate. We share bills and responsibilities but have almost zero s-xual interaction. So you can say what you want, but if I had known this I would not want to live in a marriage with no physical relationship. I cannot force him to get help but I do feel like not touching before marriage leads to problems like this. I wish he would care to solve it but because it is such a sensitive, personal, and private area, there is no one he wants to speak to.

I definitely feel like while most couples can and do work it out, there are definitely some like me that suffer due to not knowing what their spouse will be like after marriage.

Considering that I broke up with a boyfriend I was living with primarily because we hadn't had s-x in 6 months despite my constant requests, no, it's not shallow. Physical intimacy is very important. I'm sorry you are going through this OP, I don't have much advice because it was much easier for me to walk away from a boyfriend than it is to deal with the same situation while married... Lots of hugs.

bruriyah

Mon, Jul 20 2015, 4:00 pm

amother wrote:

Please stop perpetuating the myth that if you follow a "torah-true lifestyle" (as if certain torah lifesyles, the ones that perpetuate this myth, have a copyright on the torah), you will have the most wonderful life.

Can't you see the OP is stuggling exactly with this??

She was SN and did the right thing and is possibly suffering consequences of this (we don't know for sure because we can't prove it, but we also cannot prove she is NOT suffering because of this). How do you think she feels when there are women here who say they did end relationships because of physical incompatibility, while she never had the choice?

I think the OP's challenge is hugely valid and I have no answers for her.

Also, when you perpertuate the "myth" I mentioned, you indirectly point fingers at those who have challenges. You're telling them: "If you lived the 'true' Torah lifestyle, you wouldn't have these problems."

Circular reasoning.