Ex-DH visiting on Tish B'Av

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Forum -> Yom Tov / Holidays -> Shabbos, Rosh Chodesh, Fast Days, and other Days of Note

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FranticFrummie

Sun, Jul 19 2015, 2:25 am

Oy vey, I have a problem.

exDH hasn't seen DD for months and months. We're making Aliyah on the 28th, so he decided to come up and visit the weekend before. He and DD worked it all out when I wasn't around. The next day he called and said "I just wanted to confirm that I got some time off to visit, and I wanted to make sure I got there before you guys left." I told him what day we were leaving, and that was it.

I am super, SUPER stressed about this move, counting down the days, and have a million and one things on my mind. I didn't until just now put two and two together, and realize that he is expecting to come up and take DD out to do fun stuff on Sunday, will want to go out to eat, and all kinds of things - ON TISH B'AV!!!

He's leaving on Monday, and of course he knows Saturday is out, but what am I supposed to do now??? He's not Jewish, hates religion, and always makes me out at the evil one whenever religion comes up. He didn't even come up to see her for her Bas Mitzvah or secular birthday.

What am I supposed to do? I know that T b'Av is the biggest day next to Yom Kippur, and that there is no room to play around with the rules. On the other hand, he has a legal right to take her anywhere he wants and I can't stop him. It's SO not fair to expect DD to be the one to tell him "no, I don't want ice cream and movies."

To make matters worse, he's not crazy about our making Aliyah, and I'm afraid that if I make him mad he'll rescind the apostille he signed that gives us permission to leave the country. He can do that right up to the minute we get on the plane, so I've been walking on eggshells with him ever since he signed (and that was a HUGE fight. He only gave in because DD insisted.)

I can stand him being mad at me - I'm used to it by now. DD still wants to have a good relationship with him, and she can't stand it when people fight - or even disagree. It's especially bad when she feels like she's the reason people are fighting in the first place. Now she's freaking out, disappointed, confused, wants to please all sides, and stressed.

Can anyone relate???

sped

Sun, Jul 19 2015, 2:43 am

I can't relate, but that sounds really, really tough. How old is dd? I don't remember if she is Bas mitzva yet. You probably should ask your LOR what to do, but if she is not yet 12, keep in mind that there is no chinuch for 9 av, since we are confident that by the time she is 12, Moshiach will be here.

amother

Cyan

Sun, Jul 19 2015, 2:59 am

Real shailah for a da'as torah.

He could take her out after chatzos on tisha b'av and engage in activities to take her mind off the fast. We used to play games and make arts and crafts on tisha b'av. Maybe they can do something like that, some calm sitting activity w/o food.

LisaS

Sun, Jul 19 2015, 3:04 am

Gosh, this is the last thing you need to add to your stress!

I hope your daughter can find some meaningful dad-daughter bonding activities that don't revolve around food. Your daughter sounds incredibly mature and sensitive, and most of all a loving daughter.

Iymnok

Sun, Jul 19 2015, 3:14 am

Ask a Rav for after chatzos leniencies with regards to it being nidche.
Assuming she's fasting, brainstorm with her what distracting calm activity she could do. Keep in mind (and remind her) that she will be tired and likely moody. I'd find the Science Center a reasonable choice, quiet areas, little walking, and lots of distractions.
If she's on medication, she may have a heter to break the fast early. Make sure she remembers havdala before eating.

imasinger

Sun, Jul 19 2015, 6:09 am

I can totally relate. Been in similar situations. I will not share the stories publically, but I have a few doozies.

Did your DD agree to the outing without realizing what day it was? Can she call him and suggest an alternative? Because now that she is Bas Mitzvah, this is really becoming her shaila and more and more, will be her problem to figure out. Trust me, this is unlikely to be the last time there are issues with her dad over observance.

For example, since Tisha B'Av is already being changed to the 10th of Av this year, there are no further restrictions on activity once the fast is over. Maybe she could go with him on Sunday for quieter activities in the afternoon, and then a late night fun choice after the fast? Maybe, if SHE told him that it mattered to HER to not do much on Sunday but visit quietly and talk, he would be willing to tak Monday off from work to have fun?

But before anything, please talk with a rav who can understand all of the situation,and advise. She is only just recently turned 12, and there may be some leniencies or ideas. And having someone to turn to when situations arise in the future is a good idea. These days, it doesn't have to be a rav nearby, just someone who both understands the situation, and has both the people skills and the halachic background to help.

studying_torah

Sun, Jul 19 2015, 7:27 am

Will your dd have koyach to even go do anything if she's fasting? It's not easy to fast so long esp in the heat. Perhaps she can tell her father that, and they can relax watching a movie in an air conditioned place- easier than running around.
Good luck sorting it out!
Wishing u loads of Hatzlacha on making Aliyah and Mazel Tov on the Bas mitzvah!!!

DrMom

Sun, Jul 19 2015, 7:44 am

I can relate too. My parents wanted to take my kids to a huge outdoor festival with clowns and jugglers and hot air balloon rides and a carnival atmosphere on 9Av a few years ago.

We simply asked them to reschedule their day, trading 9Av for a day later on that week. Can you do that with your DH?

esther09

Sun, Jul 19 2015, 8:47 am

Your post makes it sound like there is no way to reschedule (he took off work, etc.) - though if there is any possible way to do it (maybe letting him know it's a "holiday" rather than a fast day or just some other form of pre-existing plans?) - that would be ideal. Don't make it into a religious thing or restriction - then you can't be the "evil religious" one.

But, assuming tisha ba'av is the only option, how good a faster is your DD? You mentioned she is bat mitzvah already so I'm assuming she will be fasting.
Maybe help her come up with activities beforehand that she can suggest to him - things that are indoors. Maybe something like pottery painting or a museum (indoors, not too festive, etc.) - something that she can discuss with him AHEAD OF TIME. Don't let him do the planning.
If she's an OK faster, you can ask him to come in the afternoon - after "lunch time" - so he isn't expecting to take her out for food. And tell him, don't worry about dinner, we're having a large family meal later on. Maybe they can go out for breakfast again Monday morning?

Long story short, so sorry this is such a complicated issue. If there is really no way to reorganize his schedule, I hope you can find ways to plan a tisha baav-dik day for the two of them.

Notsobusy

Sun, Jul 19 2015, 9:55 am

Ugh, such an unnecessary added stress at such a hectic time in your life.

I agree with the other posters who said there might be more leniency because it's a nidcheh this year. You really need to discuss it with a good rav, one who has experience with dealings with non frum family members.

I'm so happy to hear you're finally making Aliyah! Good Luck!

Raisin

Sun, Jul 19 2015, 10:04 am

maybe he can take her to a quiet not too strenuous activity (movie?) followed by a meal once the fast is out. (if there are kosher restaurants open in your city)

do something meaningful related to tisha bav with your dd the night before or in the morning.

yOungM0mmy

Sun, Jul 19 2015, 2:41 pm

Also she can suggest something like pottery painting, that they'll make frames for pictures of each other since you're going, and that is non strenuous, quiet and calm, distracting and a bonding thing for them. If she plans those kinds of activities, and doesn't say it's a fast till she's out with him, but says she wants to keep it because of herself, not because you're being the difficult religious one, he'll probably be more amenable to not going out to eat then.

causemommysaid

Sun, Jul 19 2015, 2:53 pm

If your daughter is old enough to fast then I wouldn't say anything to your ex and let her be the "bad guy". He probably won't get mad at her for wanting to do something for herself. If it's not coming from you then it won't be as big of a deal.

Frumdoc

Sun, Jul 19 2015, 5:43 pm

I would definitely ask a rav. There are many implications, including that this may be the last time they live in the same country and share this degree of cultural ties (however limited they are now, they will drop much more when you leave.).

You really need to consider the big picture for her, that he is her father in whatever way it has meaning for them, that this is a big big deal and the biggest goodbye they will ever have. She may not appreciate the significance but in the future she will.

There are lots of leniencies in the afternoon, pottery painting and making some kind of memento is a great idea, although usually creativity is not approved of by many, this is the kind of leniency a rav can rule on.

A special time doesn't have to be outrageously fun and silly, maybe give your daughter the task of thinking of memorable and special things she can do with him that are appropriate for Tisha Bav afternoon.

Many teens struggle to make the whole day significant, and end up thankfully running day camps, doing the weekly shop or cooking, and generally doing useful and productive but not silly/fun activities; it just isn't reasonable to expect young teens to sit in shul or cry over kinos/read tragic stories all day.

This is certainly the norm round here, and I could see our rav, once he understood the circumstances, especially of not causing an enormous row with her father who will not understand, at a point where their relationship is most fragile.

So I don't think it is as bad as it first seems, and she can even learn and reflect that spending time with her father and then effectively losing him has an emotional correlation with the dispersal of the jews after the churban, and all those families who were torn apart in so many ways (read Chains, the serialised novel in Mishpacha to get a real feel for the emotions of individuals and their respective personal churban).

sourstix

Sun, Jul 19 2015, 5:56 pm

oy oy oy I wiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiish I can help you. I really feel the pain you have, especially since I have gone through a divorce and know the pain first hand. but what your daughter is going through is something different. she sounds like the best daughter you can ever have. look how much she thinks about both of you. she knows whats the right thing to do. I will say tehillim for all of you. and may she never ever know of such pain in her life. I would give her a huge hug if I could. obviously we are anonymous. just remember that the darkest hour is the closest to the yeshua like what happened to sara and avraham. at the most unpredictable time did they have a child. you should be as calm as possible. and definitely tell her she could try to ask him to take her to more neutral places. its her father, she loves him as long as she does the right thing with some common sense she wont loose out. is there a barnes and nobel she can go with him or something neutral that he wont get stung from. he is definetly probably feeling hes loosing her. even though he didnt show up much but its worth her showing what a mentch she is. and she should tell him she will send him letters and updates as often as possible. so he doesnt feel so anxious. were not worried about him but what will make him calmer is worth the effort so she will have more leaway. this is my experience. maybe she should print out a picture of herself put in a frame and give him that day, he will be touched and she might get some leeway that way. see what I mean? maybe she can add a small note about him much she loves him and will remember him. hatzlacha on your move and may your move be meshane makom meshane mazel. and your move she be successful. we will miss you here in usa. but I know imamother is all over so nothing to worry I guess we will hear from you soon.

amother

Azure

Sun, Jul 19 2015, 6:50 pm

Please ask a rav, 9 bav is pushed off this year, in addition there are many other factors the rav will be able to consider

FranticFrummie

Sun, Jul 19 2015, 6:55 pm

Good news!

DD and I talked about it for a long time, and she cried and cried over wanting to do the right thing, but not knowing how. She decided she wanted to call exDH and talk it over.

Well, it turns out that his boss wants him to work late on Saturday night, so he won't arrive until late afternoon on Sunday! (he's coming from a different state, and driving up.) That means he's going to be too tired for activities when he gets here, and will probably grab some food for himself while on the road. By the time he arrives, DD will be nearly finished with the fast, so I suggested that he pick up her favorite kosher donuts for her as a treat to break the fast. That made everyone happy.

After I got off the phone, I told DD how precious a woman's tears are to Hashem, and how He heard her prayers for help. I told her "I'll bet you didn't even know you were praying, did you?" and she said "No", and I said "That's how powerful it is when you want to do the right thing - Hashem will help you find a way."

It was a stressful situation, but it turned into such a wonderful lesson and a Kiddush Hashem! Very Happy

Edited to fix typo.

Last edited by FranticFrummie on Sun, Jul 19 2015, 7:53 pm; edited 1 time in total

ROFL

Sun, Jul 19 2015, 7:04 pm

Glad it ended so well. May the visit also be successful

animeme

Sun, Jul 19 2015, 7:48 pm

B"H! May Hashem continue to help you both on your journeys, and may you both continue to feel and be as connected to Him as you are right now.

daagahminayin

Sun, Jul 19 2015, 8:06 pm

You're post made me cry. I'm so happy for you it worked out. HaShem really does listen!

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