The whole Orthodox world is complicit in Faigy Mayers death

Barbara

Wed, Jul 22 2015, 3:47 pm

amother wrote:

I don't give a hoot about Yisucher Katz. I know who he is and what he stands for. BTW, he can call h/s MO, but he's associated with the Open Orthodoxy movement.

Yeah. You're a shining example of what Judaism is all about, hiding behind anonymity to attack other people's lives, believes and practices.

amother

Aqua

Wed, Jul 22 2015, 3:50 pm

amother wrote:

Then why bring it up altogether?

I'm trying to prove that she suffered more from mental illness, than from "community and family troubles".
The media and all the OTDs are having a party over this story showing how bad our communites are.

While we do have an overwhelming amount of problems, not every suicide stems from our problems.
Sometimes it's just mental illness alone.

amother

Beige

Wed, Jul 22 2015, 3:51 pm

shabbatiscoming wrote:

Please explain this??? I have never heard such a thing.

Isn't there a halacha that sick people aren't obligated to follow halacha? I believe mental illness falls under this category as well.

amother

Aqua

Wed, Jul 22 2015, 3:54 pm

amother wrote:

Isn't there a halacha that sick people aren't obligated to follow halacha? I believe mental illness falls under this category as well.

Except that mentally ill people don't know that they're sick and nobody tells them, hey, you're sick! No need to follow Halacha.

tigerwife

Wed, Jul 22 2015, 3:56 pm

amother wrote:

Isn't there a halacha that sick people aren't obligated to follow halacha? I believe mental illness falls under this category as well.

I'm no rabbi, but I'm pretty sure that's not how the Halacha is defined. It applies to situations that come up such as breaking the fast on YK for health, or being mechallel Shabbos to take care of a specific health issue. It's not like ill people get a free pass to live a secular life.

amother

Beige

Wed, Jul 22 2015, 3:58 pm

amother wrote:

Except that mentally ill people don't know that they're sick and nobody tells them, hey, you're sick! No need to follow Halacha.

Except she was hospitalized as a teen (according to her family) so she/they knew she was sick. Why did they force her to follow halacha (especially since she expressed disinterest in yiddishkeit according to aqua amother)?

tigerwife

Wed, Jul 22 2015, 3:59 pm

amother wrote:

Nobody is her and no one but Faigy can say what she suffered from the most.

It seems like everyone is using her death to prove some agenda or another. Let it go.

amother

Aqua

Wed, Jul 22 2015, 4:05 pm

tigerwife wrote:

Nobody is her and no one but Faigy can say what she suffered from the most.

It seems like everyone is using her death to prove some agenda or another. Let it go.

If people are pushing the agenda of how her community "killed" her, than I'm here to push the other, (and true in this case) agenda of "stop blaming orthodoxy every time and blame mental health when it's due".

admir

Wed, Jul 22 2015, 4:05 pm

I think Katz is conflating Faigy's story for his own political purposes. He is discussing the real pain that people who leave the community go through which definitely should be addressed. However, I'm kind of scratching my head because you have Footsteps and Chulent and other groups that are out there to provide that support so it's not like it doesn't exist. That being said, I do feel that families should not ostracize their less or not frum children. I'm fortunate that any family I know who has dealt with the issue has not ostracized their child, even with the sadness and disappointment that their child did not conform to their parents' hopes for them (but I know it happens). Frum or not, I think mental illness is still a huge deal with loads of stigma and there have unfortunately been suicides among the frum and even with Katz's ideas for the Orthodox world, there would be no guarantee that the same end would have happened.

Barbara

Wed, Jul 22 2015, 4:12 pm

amother wrote:

And you're doing it by making assumptions about a woman you never knew. By publishing private facts about a woman who cannot reply.

Start a thread on how we, as Orthodox women, can support mentally ill members of our communities. Or people who were part of our communities, but have left.

But leave her alone.

amother

Aqua

Wed, Jul 22 2015, 4:16 pm

Barbara wrote:

As I said, I grew up living near her for 20 years.
We were great friends for almost 2 decades until we both parted ways.

myself

Wed, Jul 22 2015, 4:33 pm

amother wrote:

Isn't there a halacha that sick people aren't obligated to follow halacha? I believe mental illness falls under this category as well.

There is a halacha but I believe you are misinterpreting it. AFAIK it applies to a sick person that is unaware (to whatever degree) of their surroundings/what they are doing. A person in a vegetative state would fall into that category, as would low functioning individuals with autism.

Fox

Wed, Jul 22 2015, 4:37 pm

Move along, everybody. There's no story here.

Seriously, if you are touched or bothered by Faigy's experiences, do one or more of the following:

* Work in the field of neuroscience to research causes and treatments for mental illness.

* Work in the mental health care field in some capacity.

* Learn enough about mental illness to avoid oversimplifying the issues or judging others for their actions.

* Give money to organizations that help care for the mentally ill or that help families with the astronomical costs of caring for a mentally ill relative.

And most important:

* Daven every day for the complete recovery of all those who are afflicted, either in body or soul. Remember that every single person who is suffering has a name and a story. Few are tzaddikim, but none "deserve" the nisoyon they've been dealt.

amother

Aqua

Wed, Jul 22 2015, 4:39 pm

Fox wrote:

But how can we stay silent if there are people out there portraying us so badly to the media?
We have enough problems, why create more where they don't exist?

kol_yom

Wed, Jul 22 2015, 4:40 pm

myself wrote:

There is something what she Is saying. There is a halacha that people who are mentally unwell / emotional unstable fall into the category of "chole sheyesh bo sakana" and therefore are exempt from various mitzvos etc.
Then there is also the "5th shulchan aruch" that every Posek should be a "boki" in to pasken leniences for someone who finds their derech too difficult to live by.
Maybe the other poster meant one of these two?

nywife

Wed, Jul 22 2015, 4:41 pm

This thread makes me feel like I'm rummaging through someone's underwear drawer. Seriously, LETS GIVE HER SOME PRIVACY.

I surely hope that if I passed, my personal history would not be splashed online. I think you'd feel the same.

kol_yom

Wed, Jul 22 2015, 4:43 pm

nywife wrote:

I totally agree. Actually my post was a general answer, not about her case.
I find it unfair to her that she is being discussed by everyone. And it seems she had children? (at least that's what someone mentioned somehwere) I find it horribly unfair to them, a stamp they will now carry publicly for life.

myself

Wed, Jul 22 2015, 4:45 pm

kol_yom wrote:

Say a clinically depressed [non-suicidal] individual finds Shabbos depressing does that mean they can be mechalel Shabbos on a regular basis?

The poster might have meant any of those two, but the way it was phrased was way too simplistic.

finallyamommy

Wed, Jul 22 2015, 4:46 pm

I don't know who these people are, either the writer of the article or the woman or her family, but is this how we need to be talking about other Yidden during the nine days? :-(

Fox

Wed, Jul 22 2015, 4:46 pm

amother wrote:

But how can we stay silent if there are people out there portraying us so badly to the media?
We have enough problems, why create more where they don't exist?

Because it's a lose-lose situation.

Our protestations are not going to change the slant of these articles. At best, they will sound like a half-hearted apologia. At worst, they will drag us down into a tit-for-tat examination of private lives.

I think it's legitimate to be concerned about how observant Jews are portrayed in the mass media, and it's often worthwhile to challenge inappropriate portrayals and stereotypes.

However, this is neither an appropriate nor useful occasion on which to do so.

Last edited by Fox on Wed, Jul 22 2015, 4:48 pm; edited 1 time in total