The whole Orthodox world is complicit in Faigy Mayers death

amother

Aqua

Wed, Jul 22 2015, 4:47 pm

kol_yom wrote:

I totally agree. Actually my post was a general answer, not about her case.
I find it unfair to her that she is being discussed by everyone. And it seems she had children? (at least that's what someone mentioned somehwere) I find it horribly unfair to them, a stamp they will now carry publicly for life.

She has NO children. 100 percent fact.
Also, she chose to publicize her life, and now her death.
Naturally, everyone will speak about her.

hycup

Wed, Jul 22 2015, 4:50 pm

I'm going to jump in on this:
[quote="amother"]Does he really expect Orthodox Jews to encourage their children to explore and find their own way? Sorry guys, this isn't Judiasm.[/quote]

I don't know about you, but I learned that in Judaism the FIRST AND ONLY thing about educating our children is.... Chanoch LaNaar Al Pi Darko. Which means, Judiasm tells us to encourage our children to explore and find their own way of serving Hashem (within the confines of Halacha) and if Yitzchok Avinu had done the same with Eisav, well... we wouldn't be here in galus, now would we?

ora_43

Wed, Jul 22 2015, 4:52 pm

I agree with everyone who said it's inappropriate to post personal information.

OTOH... I can understand Aqua amother and others, because what about her friends and relatives who are being blamed? Her family is being condemned in major media outlets. If they (or at least some of them) actually loved her and did what they could to support her, how horrible must that be for them??? Not just to have a loved one commit suicide, which is beyond terrible already, but to have pretty much literally the entire world (or at least, 99% of people you could conceivably meet) read that it was all your fault?

I can definitely see why someone who thinks some relatives are blameless would want to share that fact, so that at least here, on a frum community website, people would hear that the story in the media isn't necessarily correct. So that at least within the frum community, the family won't necessarily be being blamed for their own loss.

eta: I'm not talking about "the community." Frum Jews/chassidim can handle some harsh criticism. But individual friends or relatives might not be able to.

Last edited by ora_43 on Wed, Jul 22 2015, 4:55 pm; edited 1 time in total

amother

Olive

Wed, Jul 22 2015, 4:53 pm

hycup wrote:

I'm going to jump in on this:
I don't know about you, but I learned that in Judaism the FIRST AND ONLY thing about educating our children is.... Chanoch LaNaar Al Pi Darko. Which means, Judiasm tells us to encourage our children to explore and find their own way of serving Hashem (within the confines of Halacha) and if Yitzchok Avinu had done the same with Eisav, well... we wouldn't be here in galus, now would we?

Of course it's Chanoch L'naar Al Pi Darko, and a child should be allowed to explore and find their way, but not OUTSIDE of Judiasm. A Jewish parent cannot encourage a child to leave Yiddishkeit.

amother

Aqua

Wed, Jul 22 2015, 4:57 pm

ora_43 wrote:

Thank you Ora for not be in denial.

Fox

Wed, Jul 22 2015, 5:04 pm

ora_43 wrote:

I can definitely see why someone who thinks some relatives are blameless would want to share that fact, so that at least here, on a frum community website, people would hear that the story in the media isn't necessarily correct. So that at least within the frum community, the family won't necessarily be being blamed for their own loss.

The sad reality is that *any* tragedy -- particularly those involving a young person -- brings out people's magical thinking.

Stand outside the shiva house when a young person is nifter after an accident or a long-term physical illness, and you'll hear the same kind of garbage:

"I wonder which doctor they used? My cousin went to Dr. Schneipenheimer and recovered completely."

"I would never let my kids get drivers' licenses so young!"

"Maybe if he'd gone to rehab when the problem started . . ."

"She just needed discipline."

"He just needed love."

"Seeing the doctor earlier might have changed things."

Why do people say these things? Because they're trying to remove their names from the bad-things-that-happen hat. Unconsciously, they realize that accidents and illness can strike people suddenly and without warning, and they want to invent reasons why it wouldn't, couldn't happen to them and their families.

No parent who has ever lost a child goes to bed at night without asking some of the same questions. Did I trust the right doctor? Should I have done more? Less? Was a better answer around the corner, but I was too tired and lazy to find it?

No amount of explanation will ever satisfy the magical thinkers, and no amount of explaining will bring solace to the mourners.

ora_43

Wed, Jul 22 2015, 5:15 pm

Fox,
I completely agree that that's the basic mechanism of it. But here there's also the element of online shaming, where hundreds of thousands of people all pile on one "bad guy." That can be devastating in itself, even in situations where people haven't suffered any type of loss.

I just see a huge difference between those few nosy people at a funeral who have to know *exactly* how the deceased died and which doctors did he see and what did he eat and was he overweight? Oh, OK, it must have been because he was overweight.

and

CNN, the New York Post, the Daily Mail, etc, all claiming to know what went wrong.

Any parent who has suffered the loss of a child will ask themselves "what if I'd caught it earlier," but very very few have to deal with newspaper headlines saying "Yes, it really was your fault." I don't think it's unreasonable to fear that for some mourners, that could push them over the edge, chv"s.

I'm not claiming that if there was no hostile press, the family wouldn't experience grief and self-doubt.

Fox

Wed, Jul 22 2015, 5:37 pm

ora_43 wrote:

But here there's also the element of online shaming, where hundreds of thousands of people all pile on one "bad guy." That can be devastating in itself, even in situations where people haven't suffered any type of loss.

I completely agree; I'm just not sure that this situation offers a way to defend our communities without getting down into the muck ourselves.

I'm not an expert in PR, so I don't know the ideal strategy. However, trading salacious details about the victim in an attempt to convince online trolls and gapers doesn't strike me as either permissible or effective.

Were I a "Forward" subscriber (lol!), I would probably comment on Mr. Katz's ignorance about mental health and his lack of research. The errors made by Mr. Katz as well as various news outlets have less to do with the facts than the stereotypes (about mental health *and* observant Jews) that the journalists bring to the story.

Our priority should be to educate the journalists, editors, and publishers -- not place a particular individual's life and family under the microscope.

PinkFridge

Wed, Jul 22 2015, 8:11 pm

admir wrote:

I think Katz is conflating Faigy's story for his own political purposes. He is discussing the real pain that people who leave the community go through which definitely should be addressed. However, I'm kind of scratching my head because you have Footsteps and Chulent and other groups that are out there to provide that support so it's not like it doesn't exist. That being said, I do feel that families should not ostracize their less or not frum children. I'm fortunate that any family I know who has dealt with the issue has not ostracized their child, even with the sadness and disappointment that their child did not conform to their parents' hopes for them (but I know it happens). Frum or not, I think mental illness is still a huge deal with loads of stigma and there have unfortunately been suicides among the frum and even with Katz's ideas for the Orthodox world, there would be no guarantee that the same end would have happened.

I'm no fan of Yissochor Katz and will not take the time to reread what he wrote to parse accurately (though I'm left with the impression that his writings here were not the most productive) but there is a point therein. As the bubbles are bursting, parents have to find a way to be able to enable their children to live an authentically Jewish life even if it's not of the same mold they had hoped for them. Too many of these groups are exits to Yiddishkeit.

As to Faigy Mayer, a"h, may her family find nechama, and may she be experiencing the menucha that eluded her in this world.

Last edited by PinkFridge on Wed, Jul 22 2015, 8:17 pm; edited 1 time in total

PinkFridge

Wed, Jul 22 2015, 8:13 pm

Fox wrote:

* Daven every day for the complete recovery of all those who are afflicted, either in body or soul. Remember that every single person who is suffering has a name and a story. Few are tzaddikim, but none "deserve" the nisoyon they've been dealt.

Years ago I had the opportunity to attend an audio visual presentation on Shemone Esrei by Rabbi Maimon Elbaz and he said that during Sim Shalom it's appropriate to daven for inner peace.
I'll add (or maybe he said this too) for yourself and others.

PinkFridge

Wed, Jul 22 2015, 8:15 pm

amother wrote:

But how can we stay silent if there are people out there portraying us so badly to the media?
We have enough problems, why create more where they don't exist?

What Fox said.
And living our lives in a way that the Shem Shamayim becomes beloved through our actions.

Dolly Welsh

Wed, Jul 22 2015, 8:16 pm

Pink Fridge's point is interesting.

Maybe there needs to be a group called Baby Steps Around The Mishkan, or another one called Modern Pickles (instead of Chulent) so people who don't like their native Hashkafa, or native Chassidus, can transition into RW Modern Orthodoxy, or Just Plain Frum. In a quiet way, very quiet and supportive.

It should be near a catch-all Orthodox shul. Probably in Manhattan.

It would need at least one licensed, frum, social worker / psychiatrist and an Orthodox rabbi involved. It would need a dedicated cell phone account.

Ashrei

Wed, Jul 22 2015, 8:26 pm

Dolly Welsh wrote:

BJX really does that. They don't market themselves as such though. They advertise as being stamm kiruv.

http://www.brooklynkiruv.com/contact/

Ave K between Nostrand and E 29th in Brooklyn.

Dolly Welsh

Wed, Jul 22 2015, 8:50 pm

I know nothing about what is available now.

As Footsteps and Chulent seem to be up and running, they might serve as a conduit for the still-frum leavers of chassidus.

Chabad is there. Anybody can walk in and daven and learn and just plain sit on a couch. Very accepting. There is a mechitza. You don't have to tell your personal tale until you are ready.

Maybe there should be a frum farm out in the countryside where youngish children who clearly are not doing well in chassidus could go to live, amicably, with friendly occasional contact with their families, at a distance. This sounds like something Israel might provide. It sounds kibbutz-ish. At least the child would find a niche at an early age. By the time you are a rebellious teenager, forbidden to see your younger relatives, it's rather late. I don't know anything about Feigy but she seems to have been out of her element very early in life. Maybe she should have been placed out somewhere back then. With horse therapy. In Israel. Easy to say after the fact. Hindsight is always twenty-twenty.

Laiya

Wed, Jul 22 2015, 9:22 pm

Dolly Welsh wrote:

As Footsteps and Chulent seem to be up and running, they might serve as a conduit for the still-frum leavers of chassidus.

To be clear, Footsteps exists to provide support and help religious people "transition" into a non-religious life-style. It is not kiruv of any kind.

esther09

Wed, Jul 22 2015, 9:44 pm

It's pretty unfair to pin this on religion and politicize this event according to one's own agenda. Why can't people just let this woman's family and friends grieve??

Mental illness is serious, underestimated and most importantly, COMPLEX. It's not simply A+B=C (like, she left chasidut + her family was unsupportive = she became mentally ill). First, "B" is an assumption that many have already shared isn't true via personal anecdote (which isn't so appropriate in my opinion but oh well, everyone grieves in their own way).

Mental illness happens based on a confluence of environment, genetics, stressors, etc. Instead of turning on each other and pointing fingers and calling everyone complicit - let's raise awareness about mental illness. How can we reach out to those suffering - all of our loved ones - and how can we prevent untimely deaths like these? THAT'S what we are responsible for as a Jewish community. Not trying to play detective and figure out why she did it. We will never know the whole story and what was going on in her head. BDE.

amother

Blue

Wed, Jul 22 2015, 9:51 pm

Has the death been declared a suicide by people who can really tell, or is this sheer speculation on the part of voyeuristic media? The woman was at a party in a bar. Chances are good that she was imbibing alcohol. Alcohol depresses the central nervous system, impairs judgment, lowers inhibitions and interferes with physical coordination. Is there no possibility that her death was an accident? Why can't we give her the benefit of the doubt?