How do I explain this?

amother

Maroon

Wed, Jul 22 2015, 4:48 pm

Can someone please help me explain this to my 10 year old ds in a way he'll understand.....

Ds plays at the basketball hoop on our block with other kids, both Jewish and non-Jewish. They all get along fine and whoever is around participates in the game. A few of the kids are black, and ds has heard them use the term "n-gger" to one another in the friendly manner that is acceptable only between African Americans. So he thinks it's an OK term to use.

I cannot seem to find the words to make him understand that while it is acceptable within the ethnic group, it is NOT ok if you are not in that ethnic group. It doesn't make sense to him, and I really want him to understand that that term is highly offensive. Help?

gp2.0

Wed, Jul 22 2015, 5:08 pm

Here is how I would explain it:

The N word was used by white people for hundreds of years to speak in a derogatory way to black people, with many offensive and racist uses of the word. White people no longer use the word at all because it was and continues to be so offensive to black people due to the history attached to it. Even if a white person does not use it in a derogatory way, white people have lost the right to use the word at all due to so many hundreds of years of using it in an offensive manner.

However, black people can use it in a non-derogatory manner, sort of a way of "taking back" and reforming their culture, taking a previously terrible word and making a mockery of it so it becomes slang for "buddy" or "bro." This mockery of the word is their right as a culture and people who were abused for so many centuries. But a white person does not have that right.

daisy dukes

Wed, Jul 22 2015, 5:24 pm

gp2.0 wrote:

Question: We were called "Dirty Jews" by nazis/gentiles which is obviously offensive to us. So is it ok if one Jew calls another Jew "Dirty Jew"? Or would that be offensive?
Because based on your response, it seems as though as long as you are part of a certain group, then it is ok to use offensive words towards one another and everyone else "lost the right" to use said words. Does that make sense?

gp2.0

Wed, Jul 22 2015, 5:51 pm

daisy dukes wrote:

There are all kinds of words that people are ok using among themselves as a mockery but they are not ok if used in a derogatory manner. For example in the chassidish community where I grew up, chassidish people would refer to OTD chassidim as "bums." This is of course very derogatory. I would not use it in a derogatory manner and it is not ok for a chassidish person to call me a bum even though I no longer fully identify with that community.

However DH and I will sometimes jokingly refer to each other as "bums" if we do something harmless like say, wear a t-shirt instead of a dress shirt - as a mockery of the term, because we have embraced it in a mocking way to make it our own and this removes the hate and ignorance from the word.

amother

Maroon

Wed, Jul 22 2015, 6:40 pm

Thanks gp2.0 for the extensive answer! I will try to convey that.... He just seems to get stuck at the part where if the boys are OK with it for each other why not for others to say.... I think it's also just his age, and trying to iron out the whole gamut of cultural differences in his own mind. I'm certain that he understands that he can't use that term, I've made that abundantly clear....

Barbara

Wed, Jul 22 2015, 6:48 pm

Does he have siblings?

He has probably said mean things to his siblings, or hit them, or done other things to them. Its not necessarily that its OK because they're siblings, but its just the way they interact with one another, as members of a group (the family).

But even if he thinks its OK to occasionally hit his brother or sister, he'd almost certainly get upset if some outsider did the same thing.

Sometimes, when you're part of a group, you get to do things that outsiders can't. And this is just one of them.

gp2.0

Wed, Jul 22 2015, 6:52 pm

It is a sign of intelligence that he's trying to understand, and you're a great mom for explaining with awareness instead of just brushing it off as that's what it is. I know too many adults who still can't grasp this concept. I think of my answer as a simplified version of a complex issue, catered to a 10 year old, because use of the N word is a lot more complicated than my two short paragraphs. Glad I was able to help!

daisy dukes

Wed, Jul 22 2015, 7:00 pm

gp2.0 wrote:

Bum is not even in the same category as N-gger or Dirty Jew so its not comparable. An outsider wouldn't understand the meaning of the word bum as used in the chasidish community nor has any gentile group ever used it towards Jews in a derogatory way or any way for that matter.
Dirty Jew, however, has been used derogatorily by gentiles towards Jews. So would you be ok if I call you a dirty Jew?
Personally, I find it to be offensive and I would find it to be verbal/emotional abuse if a member of my family called me that even if its just in a mocking manner. Actually, using it in a mocking manner would be even more offensive since its justifying verbal/emotional abuse.
I have the same feelings about the N word.

amother

Maroon

Wed, Jul 22 2015, 7:13 pm

It's entirely possible that there is no exactly comparable metaphor for this in the Jewish lexicon per se. But the clarification was very helpful.... Whether it's an ethnic group or religion or even individual family, "insiders" can use terms with one another that "outsiders" cannot. I think that sums it up pretty well. It just happens that in this case, the word that he is hearing used casually is enormously hateful when used by someone of a different race.... It's a more extreme dichotomy that is hard to understand without understanding the historical context.

seeker

Wed, Jul 22 2015, 7:51 pm

I would take it even more simply than that. The fact is that people often make fun of themselves, yet would be hurt if someone else did so. The unwritten social rule is that you are allowed to put yourself down, but you should not put down someone else. Or you are allowed to jokingly use a put-down word without really meaning it on yourself, but not on someone else because they might not know how much you mean it or not. So the word in question is one that is considered a put-down, and if they use it among themselves that's ok but if someone else does it's offensive.

I recall a scene from my youth that illustrates this perfectly: There was a kid in my day camp who liked to kvetch about how annoying her little siblings were. One day someone else said something about this person's sibling being annoying. That person got the equivalent of a social smack in the face. I hope she learned from that not to put down other people's family, no matter what they say themselves.

imalady

Wed, Jul 22 2015, 10:15 pm

next thing you know you'll be wondering how to stop him from swearing and cursing....

Tell him that he may no way say such a thing. Don't explain the background. Its a bad word. He is a Jew. He can't say bad words. The fact that a non-Jewish African American boy uses that word is not relevant. He is not one of them. He is a Jew! Let him be proud of that and skip cultural explanations that are a bit heavy for a 10 yr old.

TeachersNotebook

Wed, Jul 22 2015, 10:37 pm

The phenomenon of cultures "taking back and owning" words that have been used derogatorily against them is a very well-known and documented practice. Although the N word is not the only example, "dirty Jew" would obviously not be a good example at all, since we haven't taken it back and owned it. There are other examples that would be better, such as "queer," "Yid," or even "Obamacare."

I don't think the N word in this case falls under the same category as other curse words and off-limit words. Only OP can tell, but it may actually be a good opportunity to teach about someone's ability to take a bad situation and own it for themselves.

zohar

Thu, Jul 23 2015, 1:20 am

gp2.0 wrote:

I personally don't agree with this line of thinking, that the color of your skin gives you a right or denies you the right to say/do something, but the reality is that this is how many feel. I would not get into this whole explanation with a 10 year old. I would just say that saying the "n" word is unacceptable and you do not approve of it. Just because they are using it, we don't use that kind of language. I would add that they wouldn't react kindly if he said it, without to much explanation.