Coffee on Shabbos?

Ima2NYM_LTR

Thu, Jul 23 2015, 12:45 pm

Forgive my ignorance. To be blunt, I hate coffee and never drink it, therefore I have never dealt with this issue.

I have (non-frum) family coming over in a few weeks on Shabbos. Multiple family members and friends of the family are coming in from out of town for a simcha.

In order to avoid potential family mishigas, yet still have time for informally shmoozing, I invited these family members/friends over for a "tea" shabbos afternoon.

I will serve cakes, cookies and fruit as well as tea, none of which will be an issue. I anticipate some people may want coffee. Is there a way for me to use a timer to make the coffee when it is needed, or alternatively to keep it warm without ruining the taste?

Thanks

mha3484

Thu, Jul 23 2015, 12:49 pm

Iced coffee or instant are the best options.

Last edited by mha3484 on Thu, Jul 23 2015, 12:51 pm; edited 1 time in total

Ima2NYM_LTR

Thu, Jul 23 2015, 12:50 pm

mha3484 wrote:

Iced Coffee?

I was thinking about that- it will be August!

mha3484

Thu, Jul 23 2015, 12:55 pm

Its fun! My first cup of coffee a day is usually hot and rest I like iced.

amother

Royalblue

Thu, Jul 23 2015, 1:04 pm

Ima2NYM_LTR wrote:

I have a friend who puts her coffee pot on a timer, so she can have fresh coffee on Shabbat. I happened to mention it to my rabbi, and now he won't eat there. So you can AYLOR about it, but its likely that even with a timer, brewing coffee on Shabbat would not be allowed.

Use instant instead. Or, as someone else suggested, cold brew. http://www.chow.com/recipes/30.....offee

amother

Pink

Thu, Jul 23 2015, 1:26 pm

You are not allowed to cook up cold water on Shabbos even with a timer. If youre having a percolator, then you could have instant coffee. But you have to put the water in the cup first then add the coffe/sugar.

Rubber Ducky

Thu, Jul 23 2015, 1:47 pm

I'm a coffee drinker. Try this:

1) Pour water from your hot water urn into a cup.

2) Add instant coffee and stir. It may not dissolve completely, nebach...

3) Add milk and/or sugar.

4) Present to guests.

If you don't have a hot water urn, iced coffee is a good idea.

Ima2NYM_LTR

Thu, Jul 23 2015, 1:57 pm

amother wrote:

I understand why you told this story, and I mean no disrespect, but the behavior of your rabbi is puzzling. If your friend was doing the wrong thing due to not knowing better, then shouldn't he have found a way to teach her, instead of considering everything suspect?

A person can make a mistake due to lack of knowledge (we all have many things we don't know, and aren't aware we should know) yet still be meticulous in what they do know. Wouldnt education better serve everyone in that case?

Ima2NYM_LTR

Thu, Jul 23 2015, 1:57 pm

Iced coffee it is!!!

sky

Thu, Jul 23 2015, 2:01 pm

Real coffee drinkers will want it hot. But if you have tea and the iced version then hopefully no one will request the other version.

nywife

Thu, Jul 23 2015, 2:04 pm

I'm a hardcore coffee drinker- iced coffee just doesn't cut it. I would suggest setting up an urn and buying some instant coffee.

Ima2NYM_LTR

Thu, Jul 23 2015, 2:11 pm

nywife wrote:

I'm a hardcore coffee drinker- iced coffee just doesn't cut it. I would suggest setting up an urn and buying some instant coffee.

is instant acceptable to coffee lovers?

water_bear88

Thu, Jul 23 2015, 2:19 pm

I would have both options, if that's a possibility and you have serious coffee-lovers. I'm an occasional drinker who's happy with good instant, but the real coffee drinkers I know are split between cold-brew and good instant.

Sanguine

Thu, Jul 23 2015, 2:27 pm

If you're serving tea you must have a hot water urn going? no? Instant coffee will do just fine (we all suffer instant on Shabbat). If you're not a coffee drinker you're not expected to own a coffee maker. Just buy a decent brand of coffee. The main problem with non-coffee drinkers is that they own the same jar of coffee for years which they proudly offer (ugh)

Put the water in first on Shabbat (as someone said) if you're actually mixing the coffee. Let them add their own milk and sugar (it's not so simple). Or just leave the urn where ever you do and leave everything out for people to help themselves. (Wait... Someone will ask you if you have decaf. Just smile and say, sorry, no.)

Quote:

You are not allowed to cook up cold water on Shabbos even with a timer.

There is a Psak that somehow allows using coffee maker on Shabbat. I'm not really familiar with why and it's a little complicated so most Rabbis just say "No". But it's not 100% NO. Maybe I'll google for it and post it

Ima2NYM_LTR

Thu, Jul 23 2015, 2:39 pm

Sanguine wrote:

Yes, I have an urn, which I use all the time for tea, and know to use an extra kli. I will actually be getting a pretty tea pot to serve the water in, so I wont have to worry about any of those issues.

We do have a coffee maker- DH is an occasional coffee drinker. Itll probably be shoved into a corner in any case

Sanguine

Thu, Jul 23 2015, 2:43 pm

I just found about using a coffee maker on Shabbat. It's not 100% prohibited like people would think. But it's complicated (read the bottom highlighter paragraph_

Quote:

Shabbat Parashat Mishpatim | 5769

Use of a Coffee Maker on a Timer on Shabbat
Ask the Rabbi

Question: May one set an automatic coffee maker on a timer so that it brews the coffee on Shabbat morning? (Obviously, the ingredients would be put in and the settings adjusted before Shabbat, and no electrical switches need to be pressed to remove the coffee.)

Answer: The gemara has two main discussions about allowing things to cook by themselves on Shabbat (shehiya). One (Shabbat 36b-38b) discusses when it is required to have the fire covered or removed for fear of stoking coals. One opinion says that if the food has reached maachal ben d’rusai (nominally cooked) it may be left as one desires, while another requires covering. Apparently, if there the fire is covered, so that there is no concern of stoking the coals (or its equivalent), one could leave any food. According to a wide spectrum of poskim, a non-adjustable heat source needs no covering even when it contains uncooked food. Even if a coffee maker has many settings and controls, if it has only one level of heat (and only one speed of brewing), having the machine activate the brewing process on Shabbat would be permitted from this perspective.

Another gemara (Shabbat 18b) deals more broadly with systems set up before Shabbat that would be forbidden if set up on Shabbat. Regarding dyeing wool, the gemara says that due to a concern that one will stir the cauldron, he must seal the lid before allowing it to operate on Shabbat. Regarding uncooked food left on the fire from before Shabbat, the gemara refers only to a problem of stoking coals and not of stirring. R. Akiva Eiger (to Shulchan Aruch, Orach Chayim 253:1) suggests that if the food started cooking but did not reach maachal ben d’rusai before Shabbat started, it would be a concern (for which a blech or a non-adjustable heat source would not help). Although the Biur Halacha mentions this stringency, it appears that the great majority of present-day poskim accept the Shulchan Aruch’s ruling (OC 253:1) that when the rabbinic concern about stoking coals is handled, even uncooked food can be left on the flame (see Orchot Shabbat 2:68).

The Tzitz Eliezer (II, 6), nonetheless, forbids putting uncooked food in a place which will be activated by a timer on Shabbat. He bases himself on the Ramban (Shabbat 18b) who deals with the question of why the concern of stirring is not raised regarding cooking food. One of his answers is that the Rabbis were concerned about stirring only in regard to dye. However, his first answer is that the serious concern of stirring food applies only in the beginning of the cooking process, which, classically, happens before Shabbat. However, says the Tzitz Eliezer, when the timer activates the cooking process on Shabbat, we should be concerned about stirring. Rav S.Z. Orbach (Minchat Shlomo II, 34.1) responded that we accept the Ramban’s lenient answer, that we are not concerned about stirring, paving the way for timers starting cooking on Shabbat. The way (at least most) coffee machines work, it is anyway not feasible to stir the coffee as it brews.

A final issue is that the Rama (OC 252:5, as opposed to the Shulchan Aruch, ad loc.) forbids operating from before Shabbat a mechanism that is forbidden to operate on Shabbat if it makes noise because it is degrading for Shabbat (avsha milta). It is permitted only if people often set up the mechanism in advance and thus there is no reason to suspect Shabbat desecration occurred (ibid., regarding a clock that chimes). Since coffee makers are usually not operated on a time delay, this could be a problem. However, most machines are probably not loud enough to cause a prohibition, which exists when it can be heard in another room (see Igrot Moshe, OC IV, 70).

There are (and will be) many models of coffee makers, so one must ensure that his meets all the requirements and not assume or quote us as giving a blanket leniency.

http://eretzhemdah.org/newslet.....=2655

OP isn't looking to go out and get a coffee machine for Shabbat, but we always say that women here shouldn't Posek anything for other women.

milkshake

Thu, Jul 23 2015, 3:02 pm

amother wrote:

When I drink coffee on shabbos, I pour water from the urn into a cup (iri keili rishon), then I pour it over into another cup (keili sheini). Then I believe there is no issue with adding coffee, sugar, milk etc.

Sanguine

Thu, Jul 23 2015, 3:03 pm

Ima2NYM_LTR wrote:

Hide the coffee maker and tell them that you never drink coffee, otherwise they'll want to make normal coffee.

Instant Coffee doesn't need another kli because it's already cooked (as opposed to tea) but you put the water in first on shabbat - not sure why, I once heard for a Shinui but I only make instant coffee on Shabbat so what am I Shinuing from?

Sanguine

Thu, Jul 23 2015, 3:09 pm

milkshake wrote:

The urn is kli Rishon. The next cup is kli sheini. Then your final cup is Kli Slishi. Tea needs a Kli Shlishi cause it'a not already cooked so Kli Shishi is considered cooler. Instant coffee doesn't need a Kli Shlishi cause it's already cooked.

I once saw a decorated cup that says Kli Sheini on it. One of these gifts that you give to be cute when you're invited to a Shabbat meal. How annoying. Where would I keep it? You just use another cup.

water_bear88

Thu, Jul 23 2015, 3:21 pm

Sanguine wrote:

I believe the stream coming out of the urn is an irui kli rishon. Instant coffee isn't kal bishul, so you can "cook" it in a kli sheini. (Halachically, only kalei bishul would really be cooked in a kli sheini. That's why tea which is kal bishul, needs a kli shlishi.) An irui kli rishon is hotter and might cook even a non-kal bishul food.