What is tisha b'av really? discussion

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Forum -> Yom Tov / Holidays -> Shabbos, Rosh Chodesh, Fast Days, and other Days of Note

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abaker

Sun, Jul 26 2015, 10:15 am

trying to really understand tisha b'av feel free to add to this discussion with your own thoughts, comments, or understanding of what tisha b'av means and what happened to the beis hamikdash. I am looking forward to checking back and reading some interesting insights. have an easy and meaningful fast.

chani8

Sun, Jul 26 2015, 10:25 am

Tisha B'av is a day that we got potched for believing the spies and being afraid to go into eretz yisroel. G-d said something like, "You're crying over nothing, so I'll give you something to cry about." And from then on, 9Av became the day that bad things happen to the Klal.

I'm not sure when this day turned into a day of fasting and sitting on the ground reading Eicha, but I'm guessing it was after the destruction of the 2nd Temple.

Iymnok

Sun, Jul 26 2015, 10:46 am

When the spies returned with their negative report and everyone cried all night, Hashem said I'll give you s reason to cry.
The first Bayis was destroyed, severing a very clove relationship where we saw open nissim daily there, also beginning the end of nevua.
The second Bayis was destroyed, ending our control and presence in Eretz Yisroel and beginning the. Need to write down the oral Torah. Also the end of the concentration of Jews and Torah scholars, spreading to the "Arba mangos ha'aretz"

The main loss is our close relationship with Hashem and the centrality, prestige, honor, respect and reverence of Torah.
We have tried to integrate so many foreign ideas into the Torah. We have forgotten how to learn Torah to get to the root of what Hashem wants of us, leaving aside our politics, feelings, and ideas.

Our homes are compared to the Bais Hamikdash. The shabbos candles are the menorah, the table the shulchan and mizbe'ach, the wife is the kohain gadol, our bedroom is the kodesh hakedoshim, our bed the Aron and the husband and wife the kruvim.

May we be zocheh to return the kruvim to a loving embrace by trying to do our best to make Hashem happy.

amother

Red

Sun, Jul 26 2015, 10:54 am

Who destroyed the first bais hamikdash? Why doesn't it say anything about the first in eichah or chorbon that we read?

Iymnok

Sun, Jul 26 2015, 10:59 am

amother wrote:

Who destroyed the first bais hamikdash? Why doesn't it say anything about the first in eichah or chorbon that we read?

Eicha is only talking about the first, it was written by Yirmiyahu hanavi, who prophesied about it and lived through it.
It was destroyed by the Babalonians, Nevuchadnezar. His general, Mevuzaradan carried it out.
We just have more written material on the second.

Edited to fix an autocorrect

Last edited by Iymnok on Sun, Jul 26 2015, 1:10 pm; edited 1 time in total

imamom7

Sun, Jul 26 2015, 11:08 am

To me tisha bav is realizing that all the pain, depression, anxiety, addictions all come back to our lack of closeness to hashm and lack of clarity about life in general. While we can take baby steps in the right direction the lack of a bais hamikdash and galus are a huge wall between us and hashm.

amother

Red

Sun, Jul 26 2015, 11:26 am

amother wrote:

Who destroyed the first bais hamikdash? Why doesn't it say anything about the first in eichah or chorbon that we read?

So who destroyed the first and who destroyed the 2nd?

amother

Floralwhite

Sun, Jul 26 2015, 11:27 am

amother wrote:

Who destroyed the first bais hamikdash? Why doesn't it say anything about the first in eichah or chorbon that we read?

I listened to a shiur last night in which it was explained that the actual feeling of aveilus since the destruction of the first bais hamikdash was too distant and that's why it's not written about in The kinos which was written after churban bais sheini.
So now two thousand years later, how are we supposed to mourn? We cant even comprehend what we are missing? Yet, we must realize that every tzarah that klal yisroel suffers from today is a direct result of the churban and the lack of the bais hamikdash. All goodness would flow from the Bais Hamikdash and being that sadly we don't have it, we have tzaros, illness, lack of Parnasa, lack of shalom bayis, hard time with yiras shamaiyim.... So, if when we cry out in pain and daven about our personal tzaros, and remember that the cause is because we don't have a bais Hamikdash, then that in fact is our way of mourning its loss. May it be built speedily in our days. And may we be zoche to know of no more pain and suffering! Only simchas!

etky

Sun, Jul 26 2015, 11:31 am

chani8 wrote:

The four churban related fasts, including Tisha B'Av were instituted as days of mourning after the destruction of the First Temple. They are mentioned twice in Sefer Zechariah, in the period of Shivat Tzion,when the Second Temple was being built. That said, their observance- especially that of Tisha B'Av, were very much heightened by the second destruction occuring on (or very close to - there is some confusion over the exact date) the same date as the destruction of the First Temple.

amother

Floralwhite

Sun, Jul 26 2015, 11:55 am

etky wrote:

The three weeks start on the 17th of Tammuz which was when Titus broke into Yerushalayim the destruction of City began before the second bais hamikdash was destroyed on the 9th of av.
With the first bais hamikdash, it was also destroyed on the tisha bav however nevuzaradan actually broke into the city on the 9th of Tammuz. So when we Ashkenazim start the mourning that leads up to tisha bav, we start when the destruction of the second bais hamikdash began.

etky

Sun, Jul 26 2015, 12:03 pm

amother wrote:

According to the Yerushalmi, the walls of Jerusalem were also breached by the Babylonians (First Temple) on the 17th of Tammuz and they attribute the confusion over the date to the dire and difficult situation of the people. Asara BeTevet is an inherently First Temple Fast (as is Tzom Gedalya) mentioned explicitly by Yechezekel as the date that the Babylonians first laid seige to the city a year and a half before the destruction of the Temple itself.

chani8

Sun, Jul 26 2015, 12:07 pm

Why do we fast over something that happened in the past? Countries all have memorial days, but no one fasts. What does fasting accomplish?

sneakermom

Sun, Jul 26 2015, 12:10 pm

I am trying to understand. The Jews hesitated to go into Israel.

Why was that so bad? Weren't we still traumatized from the Eygptians?

If we showed a lack of trust...why did Hashem react by removing himself?

Was the point that we seek him out? That we endure the disconnect until he comes back?

So much suffering. So much blood shed. Darkness and confusion.

Has the point not been made?

That life is really miserable without G-d. That we are at his mercy. That we crave the closeness while we bump into each other in the dark.

And that we need him to reach out to us again. To repair the relationship. Not stand on ceremony. That we pushed him away so he has to go away.

Who cares who pushed who? We belong together. We are one.

And it's been really long in Gauls. And so much has been lost. We are human and fragile. Shouldn't G-d be the bigger one here and reach out first ?

We did our part. We endured. The Torah is alive with us.

When will it be enough?

etky

Sun, Jul 26 2015, 12:14 pm

amother wrote:

Continuing my previous post - there was a trend according to which chazal sought to synchronize the dates of the two destructions. I imagine the Yerushalmi's statement about 17 BeTammuz can also be viewed in this light as an attempt to unify the two destructions and give added resonance to the date. We do indeed have much more exact information regarding the dates and progression of the second destruction thanks to Josephus.

etky

Sun, Jul 26 2015, 12:16 pm

chani8 wrote:

Why do we fast over something that happened in the past? Countries all have memorial days, but no one fasts. What does fasting accomplish?

National memorial days are not religious observances. Other religions have (many, many) fasts too. Tisha B'Av is a religious observance that encompasses national elements but it is primarily religious in nature.

Surprise

Sun, Jul 26 2015, 12:18 pm

Where can I listen to the chorbon on phone? Anyone has a # of a hotline?

chaos

Sun, Jul 26 2015, 12:32 pm

chani8 wrote:

Why do we fast over something that happened in the past? Countries all have memorial days, but no one fasts. What does fasting accomplish?

I ask myself this question all the time. I've heard that the goal of the fast is supposed to be teshuva. In practice, I find that getting through the fast, and not teshuva, becomes the goal, and I think we miss the point.

Mrs Bissli

Sun, Jul 26 2015, 4:17 pm

This has been my pet peeves for some years, but I really do not appreciate how some shuls/organisations 'hijack' Tisha b'Av into a second Yom haShoa. Someone is showing Schindlers List this afternoon, and another kehilla had a survivor share his experience.

I have a theory about it--Holocaust is the most recent collective suffering we had, and especially there are increasing urgency as the number of survivors are dwindling with age.
For some people, it could be the Jewish suffering under the Holocaust is an emotional proxy to what it must have been to personally experience Churban Beit Mikdash.

But I personally feel this misses the point. Judaism existed fully before Holocaust whereas Tisha b'Av and succeeding diaspora defined what we practice as Judaism today. I don't have to use Holocaust as some kind of 'visual aid'--it is inappropriate and cheapen the whole Shoa.

etky

Sun, Jul 26 2015, 4:35 pm

Mrs Bissli wrote:

Overall I agree with this. I sometimes feel that concentrating on the Shoah come at the expense of the churban habayit aspect. As the most recent calamity, it is much more easily accessed emotionally than events that happened 2000 + 2500 years ago, pivotal though they were. I think it is sometimes used as a crutch to evade confronting the churban intellectually or to help elicit emotions that somehow the churban fails to evoke on its own. You're right - it potentially cheapens the Shoah and distracts from the churban which is the core event of the day.
OTOH chazal themselves began this trend of conflating calamities so I do think this lends it some legitimacy.

zaq

Sun, Jul 26 2015, 4:43 pm

chani8 wrote:

Why do we fast over something that happened in the past? Countries all have memorial days, but no one fasts. What does fasting accomplish?

Memorial days held in other countries are often nothing more than holidays. People look forward to shopping the sales and having a family cookout. In the USA, Memorial Day has become the official kickoff of the summer fun season. This is a grievous disrespect to the people who gave their lives to achieve and uphold the freedoms granted by the US Constitution. Aside from the American Legion and people who lost loved ones in the military, who even thinks about what Memorial Day really means?

As for Tisha B'Av, we're not just a country, the Torah is not just a Constitution, and the Mikdash was not just a building.

We mourn not just the war dead, but a tragedy that affected and continues to affect every man, woman and child in the nation through its entire history. Actually, many national tragedies. The first was the chet hameraglim, which put paid to any hope of true Redemption for their generation. Had the people not listened to the meraglim, had they had faith in G-d's promise, they would have entered and settled the land and lived in peace forever. Believing the propaganda of the spies doomed the adults to die in the desert, and the children who entered the land to have to fight to get it and keep it. There was never a time that they lived in complete peace in the land; they always had to contend with harrassment and invasions from their various neighbors. (Even Solomon, whose reign was the single most peaceful, had to make unhealthy political alliances and political marriages to maintain a semblance of peace, and after his death the kingdom broke apart.) Tragedy number one which opened the way for all the tragedies that followed and continue to follow.

The ninth of Av is both our own national "day that will live in infamy" and "the gift that keeps on giving" or rather the punishment that keeps on punishing. From the destruction of the first temple to the expulsion from Spain to the Holocaust, evil things culminate or begin on Tisha B'Av. (WWI started on Tisha B'Av, and Germany's resentment of its defeat created an environment that led to the Holocaust.)

The act of fasting in and of itself is really the tafel--the secondary aspect. If you just didn't eat and went about your business the usual way, it wouldn't mean much. Fasting is only one part of a whole slew of customs of mourning, and if your health does not permit you to fast, you must still practice as many customs of mourning as your health permits. Ultimately, the fasting and mourning are intended to bring about teshuvah, which in turn will bring about the redemption. Absent the teshuvah, the fasting means nothing.

Perhaps that is the critical difference, or perhaps just one of the critical differences, between Tisha B'Av and any other national memorial day. Because it is not JUST a day of remembrance and mourning. It is also a tool for bringing about change. After all, none of us alive today remembers the Temple, or the glory that was Jewish Spain, and in a few decades no one will personally remember much about the Holocaust, either. But the need for teshuvah and the hope for redemption are eternal, until the final Redemption, may it be soon.

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