HELP! I am seriously loosing my mind over ds disobedience

solo

Sun, Jul 26 2015, 6:23 pm

everything with my 4 yr old son is a battle. He refuses to do anything I ask/ tell him too. He does everything I tell him not too. He bothers/ fights with/ hurts his younger siblings. Encourages them to make trouble.
I really don't want to hit him. So I don't. I really don't want to shout. But I do it all day long. Not at first usually- unless he's doing something dangerous. I have a progression of time outs. So after telling him nicely and then more strictly to do/not do something he gets sent to a chair that's in view of the household. Then he gets sent to the next room. Then the door gets shut. Then he gets sent to... He doesn't mind having a toy taken or a missed treat. He's missed activities but never "learns his lesson" immediately after we have discussed what he did wrong and he is allowed to rejoin the family he resumes his bad behaviors. It never ends with a more obedient child. Just one who's screaming throwing things and...I know I'm not the only one who won't hit their child. I know there are lots of moms who don't shout. What am I doing wrong!!!

amother

Cerulean

Sun, Jul 26 2015, 6:44 pm

I am naturally a little bit of a control freak in terms of kids behaviors, won't tolerate chutzpah.... I've been reviewing dina friedman's parenting class and she talks about how kids want attention and will take even negative attention. She suggests making a point of giving child positive power/ attention depending on what the child needs...right now I'm dealing with a child who needs attention so I'm cutting back on what I discipline about and giving her lots of attention, I think it's helping- just a thought.

solo

Sun, Jul 26 2015, 7:11 pm

Ds does want attention. I'm sure however much he gets is not enough. But I don't think most of what he does is to get my attention. When he doesn't come up for a bath it's cuz he doesn't feel like it. When he plays by the sink Snd sprays water all over its cuz he wants to see water spray...
My 2 yr old daughter loves to test and get a reaction. I feel less bad about discipline her cuz I feel like it's developmental and she's learning. Ds really just doesn't give a **** and does what he feels like when he feels like

imasinger

Sun, Jul 26 2015, 7:34 pm

Cerulean is right. I understand that it is confusing to see how a kid's willfulness has much to do with lack of parental attention.

But it has been shown many times that they are closely connected.

Try the following for 2 or 3 weeks, and see if you notice any difference.

Spend 10 minutes every day giving your DS undivided attention, where he directs the play. Set a timer. Describe in detail what he is doing, and praise him a lot. Do not instruct, direct, or criticize; positive or descriptive talk only.

After a few days of this, make a concerted effort to start praising everything he does that is expected or desirable. Little or big, whether he has done it for years, or is still mastering it now, be enthusiastic and positive.

There is a discipline part of this system, but after 3 weeks of doing the above, you may find that you don't need it much.

solo

Sun, Jul 26 2015, 7:59 pm

Ds gets more than 10 min of us time. 30 min am before we wake his other siblings. 1 hr when he comes home while his sibs nap (I staggered naps so all 3 get some special time) 10 min before bed. He needs lots of praise to motivate in generalso I heap it on all day long. Actually I was thinking I need to reel it in.
Am I the only 1 with a toddler who just does what he wants?
As I'm typing he just licked my foot. I asked him why. And told him not to do it again. So he did it again. Perhaps he did want attention. But I'm pretty sure he wanted to get attention while doing whatever he wants to my body regardless of how I tell him it makes me feel.
Btw we hung out for the usual 30 min this morn. Went for a walk made pizza read books... While dh watched the little ones today. Then dh took him for a walk and to mincha.

groovy1224

Sun, Jul 26 2015, 8:08 pm

solo wrote:

All the times you are mentioning are when his siblings are temporarily out of the picture..maybe what he's craving is special attention even when they're all around? Maybe it would make him feel very valued if your made a point of telling your baby (even if she doesn't understand this) 'mommy is talking to Dovi right now..mommy will be with you in a minute.' Make a big show out of it. Show him that if he needs your attention, he has it (obviously it will also be necessary to show him that your can't instantly respond to his every whim, but maybe that can come after)

Some kids really just need that extra attention. Even if your feel he's getting plenty, it may not be what counts as 'enough' for him.

Dolly Welsh

Sun, Jul 26 2015, 8:15 pm

"... while doing whatever he wants to my body regardless of how I tell him it makes me feel. ..."

You are attributing a lot of empathy or lack of empathy to a four year old. Four year olds don't come equipped with empathy. Especially male ones.

You have a forceful male who may want more rules instead of more attention.

He may be cross that you are you. Meaning, he may want his father's attention and he's getting you.

Making pizza is for girls.

I know, in this modern age, not necessarily, but, this may be a throwback type of guy who is born that way. He may want to bang, build, salute, command, and be thrown upside thirty or forty times, not read books, chat like a civilized person, take a decent but orderly walk.

Reverse it. Hand him off to your husband and you take the little ones. Then he goes to mincha with his father.

He will listen to you when his father tells him to.

So I don't think this is a need for praise. I think this is a need for rules and for the father.

His father's sharp eye should be present when he is called for his bath. Maybe his father should be nearby when he is taking it, keeping an eye of command on things. Or maybe even ordering him into it.

He is ONLY FOUR.

He doesn't know from much. He just looks big, in contrast to the younger ones.

He may be a general in the IDF some day. This is a vigorous, handful boy. He has to be himself. No more cooking with mommy. Some men are just like that. I mean, Like That. He needs to be channeled not changed.

Some day he will be the other kids' protector.

Like him for the way he is, not the way you wish he were.

Of course he loves his mommy. More or less everybody does. His need for male direction doesn't change that.

It is normal to kick, squall and generally raise heck when you are not getting your needs met. We all do that. We can still be nice people. I am sure he will grow up to be a nice person.

Last edited by Dolly Welsh on Sun, Jul 26 2015, 8:26 pm; edited 1 time in total

FranticFrummie

Sun, Jul 26 2015, 9:13 pm

I'm currently reading a book by Rav Chaim Pinchas Scheinberg. He believes in what he calls "kosher jealousy". When one child is misbehaving, give a small reward to all of the children who are not misbehaving, and praise them for not doing the unwanted behavior. Make sure that the naughty child is present when this happens.

That child will want what the others have, and will be motivated to copy the good behavior, and get a prize too. Then you can gradually phase out the prizes, so you can focus on the next issue that is bound to come up.

I don't think that would work with an only child, but with sibling rivalry, I think it's genius!

imasinger

Sun, Jul 26 2015, 9:17 pm

amother wrote:

imasinger- what you are saying is very similar to dina friedman- did you figure this out on your own or is this a parenting technique you learned- I'm curious from where.

[quote]

I think Dina Friedman and I both learned it from other sources. It's pretty conventional wisdom with knowledgeable therapists and in parenting classes, frum or not.

grace413

Mon, Jul 27 2015, 10:05 am

I second the recommendation of "Raising Your Spirited Child"

It sounds like you have one very stubborn child. (The positive spin on this is to replace stubborn with persistent and determined - great traits for adults, difficult traits for moms to deal with) It is not possible to change his temperament, only to work with it. Yes, I know this is easier said then done and this book helps you do it.

He doesn't care about consequences. He wants his way and has a high threshold to do whatever he needs to attain it.

You are not doing anything "wrong" but the tactics are not effective for him. I wish I had an easy answer for you. For starters, I'd go straight to the most severe time out after one warning. That will at least alert him to a change in your reaction which may change his reaction.

Hatzlacha and Hug

Iymnok

Mon, Jul 27 2015, 11:23 am

FranticFrummie wrote:

What book is that?