Burka ladies | Imamother

amother

Seafoam

Thu, Aug 13 2015, 12:23 am

It is not an extreme form of tznius. When it comes to children it's abuse, plain and simple. With the woman herself, what she's really saying is that Jewish men are so out of control and lustful that they can't even handle a modest woman walking down the street. Nothing less than a burqa will do. That be fine in the moslem world ( 9/10 of arayos were given to them afterall or something like that), but that is unnacceptable in the Jewish world. I would never allow them into my home dressed like that, just like I never allow my off the derech nieces in my home dressed in their usual way. The girls know they have to dress tznius to come over and burqa ladies have to dress with respect to my husband and sons to come over as well.

dancingqueen

Thu, Aug 13 2015, 12:40 am

I share foxs amusement on this subject. Women on this speak all the time about how women who dress tznius but dont share their chumras will be distracting to their husbands and sons, and how easily men are tempted by any pretty woman, and how woman's pictures can't even be shown in a Womens magazine, are then indignant about women wearing a burqa? I honestly think that if Muslims weren't already wearing burqas first many chareidi people would think its a great idea.

amother

Bisque

Thu, Aug 13 2015, 2:46 am

Fox wrote:

Which is exactly what I've heard many people say about shaitels, tichels, high-denier stockings, or whatever else they find objectionable.

If a loved one has become involved with a kehilla that has practices that are abusive or otherwise problematic, then *that's* the problem -- not whether they're wearing burkas or whatever.

In contemporary times among Jews the burka was introduced by this cult. You can't separate the two and say cult bad, burka neutral. I'd feel the same way about sheitels or stockings or anything at all that is not mainstream and then instituted by cult leaders for the purposes of furthering their cult which is characterized by physical and zxual abuse. The burka represents the cult. It is not incidental to it.

DrMom

Thu, Aug 13 2015, 4:43 am

amother wrote:

I totally agree.

shabbatiscoming

Thu, Aug 13 2015, 5:35 am

justcallmeima wrote:

Wow. This is an eye opener. I thought the only place where Jewish women wear Burkas was in Lev Tahor. It seems from some of the responses here that that is not the case. Is this happening in Israel? In Europe? In North America?? Who "holds" that a woman should wear a burka? What is this about turning to the wall? Are there really communities where this is done?

you ask who holds by burka wearing? Thats just it. there is no rabbi saying that this is correct. actually the opposite. You have no rabbanim that ok this. There are certain communities in Israel that have women who dress like this. I have even heard that it is not even the husbands who want this but the women themselves

little_mage

Thu, Aug 13 2015, 5:38 am

The problem I have with the burqa ladies is that I think it is indicative of a general slide to the right in Orthodoxy, and that worries me. I have no real problem with individual women making a choice for them, but I don't think it's right for everyone, and I most certainly do not want it to become the standard in the the Orthodox world. Therefore, I think it's important to say that such covering is extreme and not Torah mandated.

shabbatiscoming

Thu, Aug 13 2015, 5:44 am

little_mage wrote:

Yes, I think there is a general slide to the right, but that does not mean that everyone out there that is frum is moving to the right. I think that if someone is happy with where they are in their frumkeit they are not going to be moving so fast, right or left.
I also dont think this burka group is as big as people are thinking it is. And even among the charedim here in Israel, this is not looked at as mainstream at all.

PinkFridge

Thu, Aug 13 2015, 7:59 am

little_mage wrote:

I don't think I can agree with you. Yes, it's taking something that people on the right are especially proponents of - the physical, outer aspect of tznius - to an extreme. So it would be coming from people who are on the rw of Orthodoxy. But I do not believe there is any slippery slope. These people are marginalized by right wingers I know.

amother

Lilac

Thu, Aug 13 2015, 9:35 am

Sadie wrote:

I'm curious what your family background is. I thought the "burka" style was a relatively new thing.
Most of what I see in Jerusalem is not actually a real burka though, but a 2 or 3 piece outfit, with a long skirt, a long shawl, and then a head, neck, and face covering. I read that some of these ladies wear 7-10 layers under the outer coverings. While one full-body covering does seem practical, the excessive layering seems like it could be dangerous in the heat.

My background is Yemeni and I have relatives who still dress this way. It's more or less identical so some Muslim styles wearing a black abaya and a veil, which I find practical. Some people label them as burka ladies.
A real burka is a one piece of clothing covering from head to toe with a covered opening for the eyes. It's originally Afghani and Jewish Afghani women also used to wear something similar.
Now the so-called burka ladies, the women who have taken upon themselves to wear all the clothes they have in their closet at the same time, does seem fairly new as a movement and a bit crazy IMO. Definitely not comfortable and not practical at all.

dancingqueen

Thu, Aug 13 2015, 10:15 am

PinkFridge wrote:

Is there a reason they are marginalized besides that they are copying the muslim dress code? Because otherwise I only hear peoples chumras and sensitivities in tznius being praised.

Sadie

Thu, Aug 13 2015, 10:28 am

amother wrote:

Yeah it does not seem fair that your relatives are being lumped in with this group. I did not know that Yemenite women who have left Yemen still wear that type of clothing. An abaya and a veil does make more sense in the Middle East than a sheital and palm tights (comfort-wise). And it has the backing of tradition. It shouldn't be confused with the ladies who wear ten layers. I saw a woman on the bus once who not only had the whole getup, but had also put some kind of cone shaped object on her head, under her veil, to obscure the shape of her head.
I went to a very interesting exhibit at the Israel Museum on Jewish women's dress throughout the ages. I'll post some pictures. I didn't write down which countries these came from but I think the white one is the Afghani burka you're talking about. I think all of these are from the early 20th century.

amother

Lilac

Thu, Aug 13 2015, 10:36 am

Sadie wrote:

I went to a very interesting exhibit at the Israel Museum on Jewish women's dress throughout the ages. I'll post some pictures. I didn't write down which countries these came from but I think the white one is the Afghani burka you're talking about. I think all of these are from the early 20th century.

The first 2 are Afghani, I think. The last picture looks Central Asian, like Bukharian. It's called paranja. I don't think people wear it anymore.
Great pictures!

silbergirl

Thu, Aug 13 2015, 12:24 pm

If thats your family mesorah, okay. If youre Sefardic and your greatgrandmother wore that and you feel you want to keep up tradition, go for it.
BUT what bothers me about it is that it is being portrayed as more "tzniusdik". Its this "frummer than thou" competition going on. With burqua jews being the most extreme thing nowadays. But I am waiting for the day to come when your kids wont find a shidduch/noone will eat in your house/ allow your kids to school/talk to you if youre not a burqua wearer.
A burqua is NOT more tzniusdik, to the contrary, it attracts more attention imho. All major Gedolim have strongly spoken out against it.

Unless its your mesorah (but then please wear those beautiful colorful robes the museum pictures here showed and not this Saudi style black burqua ....) there is no reason to wear that. And if a woman wears that, then please do not tell other women theyre immodest or not tzniusdik enough if they dont comply to complete cover up.

The burqua ladies do a LOT of kiruv. I witnessed that in my seminary, they invite sem girls and try to tell them thats what our imahos wore and that thats the only way to dress modestly.
Even world famous FEMALE teachers I had spoke openly against it.

And I attended a chareidi sem!

Nuff said.

pause

Thu, Aug 13 2015, 12:25 pm

I know that some Middle Eastern ancient Jewish traditions used to cover their neck and maybe their face, possibly because that's what all of society was wearing around them, but it's not a new concept.

(Think of the images we visualize when thinking of Miriam Haneviyah or Sarah Imeinu. Is it a sheitel and hosiery? Not in my mind. I see a a long shawl covering hair and neck, long robe style clothing and sandals.)

silbergirl

Thu, Aug 13 2015, 12:30 pm

Well, yes, because Sefardi and Mizrachi dress was influenced by the surrounding Arab culture as much as Ashkenazi Judaism was influenced by Polish and Russian dress. I said, if youre Sefardic and you feel its your mesorah, do it. But dont tell everyone who doesnt dress your way theyre immodest.

Sadie

Thu, Aug 13 2015, 12:44 pm

pause wrote:

(Think of the images we visualize when thinking of Miriam Haneviyah or Sarah Imeinu. Is it a sheitel and hosiery? Not in my mind. I see a a long shawl covering hair and neck, long robe style clothing and sandals.)

OT, but once I saw a Hasidic children's picture book about Pesach and there was a page with a picture of the Israelites running to the Yam Suf. The figures were somewhat abstract (no faces) but they were all clearly male and clearly wearing long black jackets and streimels.
I wish I had taken a picture.

pause

Thu, Aug 13 2015, 12:45 pm

Sadie wrote:

Pathetic, no?

June

Thu, Aug 13 2015, 12:49 pm

dancingqueen wrote:

Is there a reason they are marginalized besides that they are copying the muslim dress code? Because otherwise I only hear peoples chumras and sensitivities in tznius being praised.

I never heard the Muslim reason for condemning them. I've heard that it's way too extreme, not our mesorah, and the opposite of tznius, among other reasons.

(Actually one person I know always says that they're putting us in sakanah because nobody knows who is underneath - it could be a terrorist, etc.)

Kitten

Thu, Aug 13 2015, 12:50 pm

Sadie wrote:

Many chassidishe kids books contain such depictions Just go to any book store and you'll find plenty of them.

PinkFridge

Thu, Aug 13 2015, 1:22 pm

Kitten wrote:

Many chassidishe kids books contain such depictions Just go to any book store and you'll find plenty of them.

It's not just contemporary Chassidishe (and I will confess to finding this odd) but you can also see illustrations that predate chassidus and the men are wearing tricots.