Is your son bringing a smartphone to bais medrash?

Tablepoetry

Mon, Aug 10 2015, 5:27 am

amother wrote:

Are you kidding!?! I don't understand the reasoning!?! Look at my original post- I said what my son wanted to do, not that I was going to let him. I waneed to find out if other parents were letting, because even when u say no, u can still sympathize!! You're post was really mean spirited and untrue!

I'm not quite sure how one can 'let' or not 'let' a twenty year old do anything, let alone something as trivial as bring their phone. I mean, at that age, the men around me are finishing their army service. In other parts of the world they may be getting married, or off to school far away, or working....twenty is a big boy.

That said, let him see what his friends are doing. Yeah, I know there are 'official rules'. Maybe I'm too Israeli for my own good, but 'offiical rules' are just that. Sometimes no one follows them, and the reality is very different than the 'official' instructions.

I realize that probably many parents send there hoping their kids don't get exposed to cellphones. Well, then the administration needs to crack down on kids who do bring, and to simultaneously educate them as why it's wrong.

I don't view official rules as some moral code I MUST follow. If the official rules contradict my own beliefs or my own comfort, then I make my own cost-benefit analysis and decide whether it's worth my while to obey or not. Obviously in this case some schools are not making it risky enough for students to think twice before bringing their phones.

Tablepoetry

Mon, Aug 10 2015, 7:39 am

November wrote:

My DD went to a school that officially did not allow smartphones, yet most girls in her class had them. I didn't care if they had them or not. School policy was no smartphone + I knew it would not be good for her neshama/learning so no smartphone. Big difference is that this is high school and she's younger than OP's son.

My dd attends a DL school where official policy is no phones at all, of any sort. All the girls bring one anyway and hide them well (caught phones are confiscated). Some of them really need that phone. Some of the girls live far away and they wait outside at the bus stop after dusk, in the dark. Their parents requested permission for cellphones but none was given. Not every 'rule' is smart.
I'm glad my dd can't use her phone in class, but otherwise I like the fact I can leave a message for her and she reads it sometime during the day (pick up your sister/when are you coming home/etc). I don't encourage her to bring her phone to school (in fact, originally I discouraged her), but I'm certainly not going to forbid something I find ridiculous.

You may say, why don't I just send to another school. Well, there literally is no other relevant school to send to. And every school has some 'rules' we may or may not agree with. I don't make a religion out of these rules. Nor is it the law of the land. It's just school administration changing policies every year according to what's in fashion. Nobody voted them in. I certainly had no say whatsoever in who the principal of my local DL school will be. I don't feel I owe him/her any allegiance.

imasoftov

Mon, Aug 10 2015, 8:27 am

I'm not worried about the effect of technology on my childrens' neshomos, and if someone only thinks that a beit midrash student should be spending every minute of the day in Torah study, there is nothing I would want my children to do 24/7 (or /6), you need some downtime whatever you're doing.. I am, however, worried about the effect of rules that everyone ignores, and if there was a school forbidding something I thought was OK I would not say "oh, well he or she can do whatever", I would say "having a rule and ignoring it sends the wrong message". Wrong messages.

It's also dangerous to be in a situation where "everyone" violates the rules but the authorities don't care. This means that if you're doing something else which does not violate any existing rule but they don't like what you did, they can throw the book at you for the rule you are breaking, even if you're not the only one breaking it.

amother

Smokey

Mon, Aug 10 2015, 11:04 am

OP says her son just finished high school. He may be 18 or even still 17. She can still put her foot down and not allow him to bring the smart phone with him to Yeshiva. MY son is almost 20, I'm not paying for his service and he's had the "dumb" phone since it was ok with the yeshiva at the time he got it. I don't think that it is the same. If the yeshiva OP's son is going to does allow cell phones but not smart phones, I would make him get a new phone before leaving to Yeshiva. I think everyone has to consider the circumstances their child is in.

etky

Tue, Aug 11 2015, 2:53 am

Tablepoetry wrote:

I had the exact same situation with my DD. I also allowed her to bring her (dumb) phone just in case we needed to contact her by text at some point during the day, before coming home. She was very vigilant about not taking it out at all in class or conspicuously during recess because of school policy and so were the other girls. The school, for its part, was not super hysterical about enforcing the rule if they saw one of the older girls discreetly texting during a break. Basically, common sense was allowed to prevail. The rationale of the rule, which I 100% respect, is to discourage a culture of cell phone use within the school building that would hamper learning and/or inhibit social interaction during recesses. To do this effectively they had to proclaim an overall ban on cell phones.
Overall though I was uneasy doing this, because I do not like to have to go against school policy even if I think it is unwarranted or unreasonable. I feel it is in some way non-educational to do this. A child should learn that rules should be respected and that they are instituted for a reason by qualified people who have been charged with the responsibility to create them for the common good of the institution and its constituents. Sometimes that creates inconvenience for the individual but if everyone decided to disregard the rules then the ensuing anarchy and undermining of the authority of the people/person in charge harms everyone. This respect for authority is a lesson that kids are supposed to learn early on in school and that they (hopefully) then take with them into adulthood.
Of course we're talking about 'neutral' rules here - not issues of conscience or moral substance which is a much thornier matter.

PinkFridge

Tue, Aug 11 2015, 9:11 am

Tablepoetry wrote:

Could the school have a drop box for phones, where the kids could drop them off in the AM, pick them up before going home? You're in a really tough spot. I'm very big on not breaking school rules but I also wouldn't want my child phoneless under your circumstances.

PinkFridge

Tue, Aug 11 2015, 9:13 am

imasoftov wrote:

Who said that? There are healthy outlets like (kosher) reading and sports. Then the kids are revitalized and better able to learn when they get back to it. Sure, some kids might carry the image of that great triple into the beis medrash with them, but there's a difference between the live image of their fun game and the screen image of organized sports.

PinkFridge

Tue, Aug 11 2015, 9:15 am

amother wrote:

I agree. I would also tell my son that he's a big boy, who is responsible for the decisions he makes. If he makes a destructive decision that might get him kicked out he better have a plan B. In fact, he needs to take a good hard look at the yeshiva, make a list of pros and cons, consider if there is anyone on the hanhala he has a safe and positive relationship with, and possibly consider another makom Torah.

Tablepoetry

Tue, Aug 11 2015, 9:52 am

PinkFridge wrote:

I suppose they could, but they don't. I wouldn't want to either, under their circumstances. It's complicated to be in charge of such expensive equipment. Imagine one girl's cellphone disappears. Most have advanced smartphones. Who will be responsible? Who will pay?

As it is, in contrast to etky's dd's school, they are very vigilant about the ban. If a girl is caught with a cellphone OUTSIDE the gate, her parents are called, etc.

I think it's ludicrous because they are working with a student population where every single pupil has a smartphone. And every single girl brings that phone to school, smuggled in her bag. You need to be realistic about the population you are working with, and create realistic rules.

But I am glad, like etky said, that the end result is a school culture where they are not on their phones 24/7. I just wish they could do that without forcing everyone to 'break' the rules.

gold21

Tue, Aug 11 2015, 9:53 am

my kids are still younger
but-
I think theres a big difference between a guy in first year beis medrash and a guy in 4th year beis medrash
Once a guy is 20/21 I would say, let him make his own choices, he's a grown up.
At 17/18/19, he is still really young and I think you are right to weigh in on his choices. (Even though 18 is legally an adult, its not like the "adult brain" clicks into place on the dawn of the 18th birthday for everyone- parental input is still very valuable)

Lots of boys bring smartphones and hide them from the hanhala- however, many get caught with them and get a "knas" of varying amounts of money or suspended or possibly expelled.
So it is risky.
But its hard to convince an 18 year old to leave his smartphone at home, smartphones have become a huge part of our lives, especially for younger people.
So, I dont know.
Good Luck

PinkFridge

Tue, Aug 11 2015, 10:00 am

gold21 wrote:

And he's also someone the younger bochrim will look up to.

PinkFridge

Wed, Aug 12 2015, 9:01 am

imasoftov wrote:

Could you elaborate on that last sentence for me?

I was preempting a question. Let me explain.
I was describing healthy outlets, such as sports. So someone might say, ah, but even sports can be distracting, the bochur might be thinking about the geshmake game instead of the mesechta in front of him. That's a chance I'd be willing to take.(Especially since that level of intensity is not healthy for the masses.) I think it's healthier than getting caught up with and reliving an image on a screen, that he was merely a spectator of.

imasoftov

Wed, Aug 12 2015, 9:59 am

PinkFridge wrote:

Are you explaining a smartphone ban because someone might be distracted by remembering last night's game during shiur? I am not a sports fan myself but I do not remember people who were being unable to focus on their classes the next day after having watched sports on TV the night before. The same is true in the working world.

PinkFridge

Wed, Aug 12 2015, 10:06 am

imasoftov wrote:

No, no. The reason for the smartphone ban was entirely different. I was just comparing/contrasting unwinding by playing sports, and watching sports and trying to get into the head of someone who might say that sports shouldn't be allowed either.
And again, a yeshiva needs to allow some healthy outlets. Smartphone use though is not one in this yeshiva.
(As an aside, I heard from a kiruv R"Y that things are so different now. People used to come to the yeshiva and immerse themselves, now they go back to the dorm and their internet devices....)

imasoftov

Wed, Aug 12 2015, 10:20 am

PinkFridge wrote:

I am older than the internet and I remember people finding distractions back then too.