Eating Pas Palter but not Chalev Stam - is that hypocritical

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amother

Olive

Wed, Aug 12 2015, 7:12 pm

I eat Pas Palter but I don't eat Chalev Stam. Recently someone asked me why I don't eat Chalev Stam and I said because it is wrong. But then they pointed out that I eat Pas Palter and that is the same level of 'wrong'. Would you say that it is hypocritical to eat one while saying eating the other is wrong (but not looking down at someone who does eat the other )?

mommy3b2c

Wed, Aug 12 2015, 7:32 pm

What is pas palter?

Also, it's kind of rude to say challah Stam is wrong.

ginevraweasley

Wed, Aug 12 2015, 7:38 pm

I understand that the justifications for each is quite different. Compare http://www.star-k.org/kashrus/.....l.htm to http://www.star-k.org/kashrus/......htm.

I'd classify chalav stam over cholov yisrael as a "kulah" and pas yisroel over pas palter as a "chumrah" -- if that makes any sense! My understanding is that pas palter is more widely accepted than chalav stam.

Just because someone is self-righteous doesn't make them righteous, or right Smile

ginevraweasley

Wed, Aug 12 2015, 7:39 pm

mommy2b2c wrote:

What is pas palter?

Also, it's kind of rude to say challah Stam is wrong.

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=pas+palter

Dolly Welsh

Wed, Aug 12 2015, 7:46 pm

Maybe that's one for a rav?

A bread machine will make a bread loaf and also risen dough, if you want to form the dough into two or more loaves, and bake it yourself in the regular oven. No biggie. Easy. It does all the work and comes out fine. Breadman is one good brand; there are many.

One needs yeast with a hechsher; that can be got in bulk online too, King Arthur website has it with its own jar. I warm the water in a glass measuring cup in the microwave.

morah

Wed, Aug 12 2015, 8:02 pm

People think we're funny because we eat chalav stam and are makpid on kemach yoshon. Oh well. We have our reasons for each and rabbinic backing. It's nobody's business.

Volunteer

Wed, Aug 12 2015, 8:26 pm

I think those are two separate issues.

If memory serves, whether pat Israel applies to,commercial bread was questionable from the beginning. If the reason for,pat Israel was to prevent overly fraternal relationships with non Jews, then commercial bread wouldn't be a problem.

Halav Israel was about preventing the possibility of consuming milk from non kosher animals, such as camels (common in the middle east). Some relatively recent qrabbis have said that since non kosher animals' milk is not used in the USA, and the country's laws would prevent adulteration, special supervision is not necessary here.

Volunteer

Wed, Aug 12 2015, 8:32 pm

The difference is that commercial bread may never have been prohibited at all according to the original mandate of pat Israel. Whereas plain milk was assumed to be prohibited in the past, only nowadays some rabbis reasoned,it should be permitted under current circumstances.

cbsp

Wed, Aug 12 2015, 8:40 pm

Nope, not at all.
Pas palter is discussed in the gemorah as a takana that was not fully able to be kept (there is a concept of keeping pas Yisroel for Shabbos, yontif, rosh hashanah thru Yom Kippur which is mentioned in the shulchan aruch). The reason for the original idea to only use pas yisroel was to prevent intermarriage. If some anonymous baker is baking for anonymous people then that scenario was avoided. Bread used to be the staple of life, lack of bread would mean life or death, so the concept of pas palter (pas= bread, palter= baker) was created. But if the local baker would show up at your door with a fresh loaf of bread he baked just for you then you'd be forbidden to eat it as pas akum.

Chalav stam, or chalav hacompanies as R' Moishe Feinstein referred to it, was a very big kulah that did not really exist until the last century or so. The reason we don't drink cholov akum is because of kashrus issues, not intermarriage issues. So the reason chalav ha'companies was determined to be muttar is because of the level of government protocols and the fines/damage to reputation that would ensue if the companies violate said protocols. It's a big kula that not everyone holds (and even R Moshe held that a baal nefesh shouldn't rely on it). (Full disclosure, we eat cholov stam and pas palter)

I'm usually not so knowledgeable but I just started listening to a series of shiurim by R Yosef Viener on this topic

http://www.torahstream.org/#/t....._5775

go to the last page for the first shiur. I think pas palter is discussed starting shiur 10 or 12 maybe? They're 20 minute long shiurim.

Hope this helps!

cbsp

Wed, Aug 12 2015, 8:42 pm

Ummm, what volunteer said Very Happy

out-of-towner

Wed, Aug 12 2015, 8:50 pm

ginevraweasley wrote:

This is correct. Pas Yisrael was instituted as a way to keep people from intermarrying. Pas Baal Habayis, bread baked by a non-Jew non-professionally is completely Assur. However, Pas Palter, bread baked by a baker in a bakery, is seemingly okay. However, the Rabbanim say that if you have easy access to Pas Yisrael goods, you should try to be Makipd and only eat Pas Yisrael, but if you don't have easy access to it, it is perfectly fine to eat Pas Palter.

Cholov Yisrael over Cholov Stam is a totally different issue. Technically all milk used for our consumption needs to be supervised by a Jew. However, because in America the supervision of milk sold commercially is very strict, milk that is labled as cows milk is indeed cows milk without a doubt, because of the fear of being fined and/or closed down by government authorities. Thus, a Heter was given to use non C"Y milk in America. However, this is a Kulah, and this Kulah is only in places where similar supervision is given to commercial milk products.

ahuva06

Thu, Aug 13 2015, 3:44 am

If I never speak L"H but I have trouble with my tznius, does that make me a hypocrite?

We all gotta do the best and be the best that we can be. Keeping one mitzvah in a stricter way than keeping another one is good. It means you're growing at your own pace. It's not all or nothing. We aren't meant to be perfect.... just the best that we can be!

Frumdoc

Thu, Aug 13 2015, 4:53 am

This is so interesting, I don't know of anyone who eats bread not made by a jewish baker, as we have such a proliferation of them locally.

So if you eat pas palter, can you explain what that means in practice. Do you buy commercially made bread, and how do you ensure they haven't used any lard or greased the pans with anything treif, or treif was made in the same pans or ovens just before.

Because I was aware it can be done in an emergency, if no kosher bread is available and you inspect the bakery, but on a commercial scale you would need a mashgiach, in which case you may as well make it kosher.

I guess this may be another American life thing I don't get.

Everyone here buy bread from one of the multitude of bakeries, usually on the way home from shul (the bakeries time it that way) or makes their own.

Frumdoc

Thu, Aug 13 2015, 4:55 am

Also, many people here have chalav stam, but I don't know anyone who doesn't have pas yisroel. So this combination is v normal here.

June

Thu, Aug 13 2015, 6:05 am

Frumdoc wrote:

It has a good hechsher, like OU, Star-K, Chaf-K, etc. Most major brands of bread and baked goods (cookies, pretzels, etc.) have good hechsherim, but people who are makpid on pas yisrael won't eat them.

Frumdoc

Thu, Aug 13 2015, 8:04 am

Ah, we don't have that in my country really. Commercial baked goods don't have hechsherim.
Thanks for explaining.

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