 |
|
 |
 |
|
|
Forum
-> Inquiries & Offers
-> Israel related Inquiries & Aliyah Questions
|
amother
Babyblue
|
 Tue, Sep 01 2015, 5:11 pm
| deena19k wrote: | | I dont get it. All the names given as references to call to verify these stories all say that they have no proof ro verify the rumors. The affected posters said to call shana, who did not verify their claims. They said to call chevi lapin, who did not verify their claims either. They said to call Rabbi Greenwald. My dh spoke to Rabbi Greenwald's son who said that his father hired a top private investigator over two years ago and has not yet been able to come up with any proof to verify these stories. So excuse me for being doubtful of the validity of all these rumors. |
You are generalizing, and many people are starting to read this now and won't go back to read all the posts before. I didn't say call Shana, or Chevi, or R'Greenwald's son. And all his comment says to me, if it is true, is that the 'top private investigator' didn't succeed. Which I know anyway because we were recently affected.
| |
|
| Back to top |
 2
 5
|
black sheep
|
Tue, Sep 01 2015, 6:51 pm
|
linen amother, I believe you, and I am sorry that you are facing all this disbelief on imamother and probably in real life too. you don't deserve it and your son doesn't deserve it. people don't understand what a large role they play in the abuse just by not believing the victims. I apologize to you on their behalf. they are ignorant fools who should have just kept quiet and instead have caused you and many other victims tramendous pain that you don't deserve.
| |
|
| Back to top |
2
15
|
|
amother
Lavender
|
Tue, Sep 01 2015, 7:17 pm
| amother wrote: | The reason I deleted my last post was
Because at the end of the day, my goals are:
1. Israeli parents can know enough that they take this seriously and contact people involved.
Done [on the private thread and word of mouth]
2. That my family is safe
Done
3. That this group blows up in smoke.
And right now, the people I stand with in combating the ritual abuse group are people who hired the private investigation. And they don't want the real sensitive information public.
I have fulfilled my personal achrayis and said what I could. I have given numbers of contacts.
What is going on this thread is hock. And as far as the investigation is concerned, the more average people that think this thing is fake, the better so they can do their work faster and more efficiently.
The other reason is that anything I said is going to be jumped on and refuted by people that want more and more evidence. I have it. But I can't give it over to you without it damaging the investigation. I am hurting enough, and I am afraid I can't handle that too.
I can't seem to keep away from this thread because it is so emotionally charged for me, but at the same time, it is making me sick and I think about it all day and re-read all my posts ten times. I think about what my son has said and what my friends kids have said and am living this trauma all day. We are not there anymore. We are in America. At a time when I need to be working on breaking free and living a normal life, following this thread is not helpful for me or anyone else.
So, don't believe it. So, say we are all psychotic. So, blame it on us. So, convince mothers to calm down and send their children to their daily dose of ripping their souls apart. Hock away.
But, to all of the naysayers, to all the rabbonim with power saying their "shoulders are not broad enough to do something about this," to all the parents convincing other parents this can't be true, to the perverted police, to the irresponsible doctors, to the overwhelming majority of our nation that has betrayed us, and especially to the sick middlemen that think they won't be caught:
Boy, am I happy I am not you. What a shameful day that will be when this thing finally blows up and goes public. And if it never does, there is still shamayim and what you will all have to face there. |
You can't have it both ways. You can't say the more people who believe this is fake the better, and then criticize the ones who don't believe for sending their children "to their daily dose of ripping their souls apart". You have information that you are withholding, and yes, you have your reason. But why can't you understand that people need facts in order to make the right decision? Didn't you say you would not have believed this if it hadn't happened to your son?
Which is more important- justice or safety of others? Not giving out facts maybe could help catch the bad guys but in the mean time innocent people who aren't getting the facts they need could get hurt.
| |
|
| Back to top |
0
11
|
|
amother
Copper
|
Tue, Sep 01 2015, 7:40 pm
|
linen. I feel the same way. thanks for your post!
| |
|
| Back to top |
1
2
|
elisheva25
|
Tue, Sep 01 2015, 7:44 pm
| amother wrote: | The reason I deleted my last post was
Because at the end of the day, my goals are:
1. Israeli parents can know enough that they take this seriously and contact people involved.
Done [on the private thread and word of mouth]
2. That my family is safe
Done
3. That this group blows up in smoke.
And right now, the people I stand with in combating the ritual abuse group are people who hired the private investigation. And they don't want the real sensitive information public.
I have fulfilled my personal achrayis and said what I could. I have given numbers of contacts.
What is going on this thread is hock. And as far as the investigation is concerned, the more average people that think this thing is fake, the better so they can do their work faster and more efficiently.
The other reason is that anything I said is going to be jumped on and refuted by people that want more and more evidence. I have it. But I can't give it over to you without it damaging the investigation. I am hurting enough, and I am afraid I can't handle that too.
I can't seem to keep away from this thread because it is so emotionally charged for me, but at the same time, it is making me sick and I think about it all day and re-read all my posts ten times. I think about what my son has said and what my friends kids have said and am living this trauma all day. We are not there anymore. We are in America. At a time when I need to be working on breaking free and living a normal life, following this thread is not helpful for me or anyone else.
So, don't believe it. So, say we are all psychotic. So, blame it on us. So, convince mothers to calm down and send their children to their daily dose of ripping their souls apart. Hock away.
But, to all of the naysayers, to all the rabbonim with power saying their "shoulders are not broad enough to do something about this," to all the parents convincing other parents this can't be true, to the perverted police, to the irresponsible doctors, to the overwhelming majority of our nation that has betrayed us, and especially to the sick middlemen that think they won't be caught:
Boy, am I happy I am not you. What a shameful day that will be when this thing finally blows up and goes public. And if it never does, there is still shamayim and what you will all have to face there. |
I live in America and I've been following this thread and I believe you. And many I am sure do as well. Others here do not and that ok, it still doesn't nullify any of your experiences . Stay strong . You have to also understand that people don't believe for 2 reasons . 1. It just sounds wayyy too horrific to be true 2. Everyone keeps screaming there is lack of evidence, now the issue is if there really was more evidence than this whole case would be close to being solved and it isn't . Keep your head high .
| |
|
| Back to top |
1
8
|
elisheva25
|
Tue, Sep 01 2015, 7:47 pm
|
For the last 3 pages many of you are saying there is just little to no evidence so therefore this whole thing is false . This really makes no sense . If there was more evidence than who ever is working on solving this, would be close to some kind of finish line. Clearly there aren't. Lack of evidence doesn't make something false. It just means there is more digging for the investigators that are working on this to do.
| |
|
| Back to top |
1
7
|
|
amother
Goldenrod
|
Tue, Sep 01 2015, 8:05 pm
To those that think that all you have to do is go to police, it is not nearly as simple as that. You first have to go to the Merkaz Hagana, where they have to speak to your child, not you, the parents. You think a kid who has been traumatized wants to talk to people they don't know after what they have been through? Your evidence isn't good enough. And if anyone, including a therapist, has spoken to the child first, it is too late to go to the police. It's a vicious cycle and makes no sense.
It makes me so sad to read how demeaning some people have been to these mothers who have been going through hell. It doesn't matter if you believe it or not. It doesn't matter if it was done by a ring or cult. What matters is these children have been scarred for life and their lives have been shattered right now. If your child has never been affected by abuse, you can thank Hashem every single day. Don't make things harder for these mothers with your doubts and your putting them down.
My heart goes out to all those who have been affected. May Hashem send you healing and refuas hanefesh v'haguf to your precious children. It is absolute gehinnom, but with the right help and lots of tears and tefillos, your child will heal. 
| |
|
| Back to top |
3
11
|
MagentaYenta
|
Tue, Sep 01 2015, 9:22 pm
| amother wrote: | | To those that think that all you have to do is go to police, it is not nearly as simple as that. You first have to go to the Merkaz Hagana, where they have to speak to your child, not you, the parents. You think a kid who has been traumatized wants to talk to people they don't know after what they have been through? Your evidence isn't good enough. And if anyone, including a therapist, has spoken to the child first, it is too late to go to the police. It's a vicious cycle and makes no sense.... |
If you have read anything about the McMartin hysteria you would understand why a child who is victimized needs to be interviewed by a qualified and trained professional.
| |
|
| Back to top |
0
9
|
AinOdMilvado
|
Wed, Sep 02 2015, 2:07 am
linen & babyblue, I have been following this thread with horror and I cannot imagine what you both must be going through!
I have PMed Yael and don't feel like I have enough info still.... As I can't PM anon, can you PM me or email geulah613@yahoo.com (from an anon email) so I can ask you Qs that no one seems to be able to answer? Specifically, I am not in yerushalayim but do send to gan as well as an iriyah mishpachton (my new baby!) and am freaked out as to what I have to look out for or how to know if I have to be "choshed"? and even if I pay 3 times the price for private mishpachton, how I would know if they're really any safer there? (also if my 5 year old in a regular cheder seems more out of it but we just moved and had a new baby etc which I chalked it up to (and he doesn't talk about anything strange and isn't coming home with injuries of any sort), would I have to be concerned that anything hypnotic/subconscious is going on with him?)
| |
|
| Back to top |
4
0
|
ProudMommie
|
Wed, Sep 02 2015, 4:34 am
B'SD
Dear Linen,
Even though this is an anonymous forum and someone maybe not so mentally stable can post on here, I still believe that your child experienced trauma ...and I am sure so do the majority of people reading your post.
Your words are very compelling and you sound like a level-headed mother just like many of us.
As much as I can believe someone anonymous, I DO believe that something horrific happened.
You can't possibly ask for more belief than that! To believe someone you have to know them!
Please understand those that are struggling with this because in this crazy world of ours as it is right now in our history, we can no longer just accept someone's word ... to my great pain and sorrow.... Someone could feasibly make this up... who really knows? Someone could have a sick agenda just like the perps who you say touched your life... r'l. It could be many many possibilities I am not going to elaborate on this forum. By the way, have the therapists been investigated too?
We are all anyway living in heightened sense of fear, of hypervigilance. Any normal, spiritual person feels that the world is shaking... And it is very easy to step over the very very thin line that separates normal thinking into a state of panic and paranoia, and to a suspicion of everyone of everything. Paranoia is on a spectrum...
What keeps us upright is... only HKBH in Whose love and protection we trust. That is ALL.
Who can now honestly say that in today's world there is any stability, something other than Hshem to hold on to... to even ask...? I speak to many people who are struggling with so many things, including panic attacks, depression, fears, and a sense of alienation... a lot. Also, I think that many people feel distrustful of others ...and who could blame them?
What I am saying is that it is easy to go to a place where you are convinced that ritual abuse of this sort is happening. In fact, it is probably happening somewhere in this world, and unfortunately maybe here too...
Anyway,
I do believe that SOMETHING happened to your child. I believe it was awful. I do believe that.
The other part of this story... I hope to G-d it is not true!
You have to be understanding of my predicament too!
Your story is the worst story I have EVER heard in my life!
Because this story is about a HOLOCAUST is happening to our children! No less than that! Not only that... There is NO ONE we can really trust, not certainly another Jew since they could be the ones "handing over" our children to this "cult". Not our sweet BY girl/ neighbor because she could have been programmed by "these people" who only with one signal could turn her into a perp who will "deliver" our children to "them".
You see... a horror movie would have been lighter than this.
I understand that you want to warn people, but you give us nothing to go on. Though I understand your reasons for not being able to elaborate more...
Still... it leaves us in the same place...
Your child WAS hurt, BUT what are we supposed to do without knowing any real solid facts?!
Run to America, the land of safety, oasis?? Please don't advise people to do that, America is no oasis!
HKBH is still in charge!!!! The world is not hefker no matter what anyone says.
Being in Eretz Hakodosh is a tremendous mitzvah and we are zoiche to be living here BH.
Yes, I am scared that evil people with evil motives could hurt us, our children. Yes, but it can happen ANYWHERE!
Here in E'Y we are at home. Yes, this is our home. Yes, there are things to be done... but it is worth investing our energies here NOT in chu'l. This is the land of our fathers and this is where we belong! Period! Anyone who tells you otherwise is lying!
I do believe that the truth will come out and meanwhile we have to be vigilant by setting our priorities straight and being "involved" and in love with our precious children.
Of course, we should have 5 eyes on them at all times. And maybe it if means that we have to live very much on a strict budget or ask for help, so our children stay home with us UNTIL they are big enough to tell us if something is up, then so be it!!! Mommies always did that and children stayed home until they went to school! SO be it for our inconvenience or sacrifice of personal time. I actually have never trusted anyone that I did not know WELL (and even then!) with my child and only sent him out later when he could articulate any issues...
Linen, I would be no less scared to be in America where far worse things are happening as any reasonable person knows. There is no place to run ANYWHERE. Whatever is happening or not happening Hshem IS IN CHARGE OF THE WORLD!! IT IS NOT HEFKER!
Sending you only loving and positive thoughts and tefillos and brachos that you along with the rest of us survive this terrible, dark golus where we hardly can have a moment of peace! May Hshem send Mashiach Tzidkeinu soon to rid the world of evil and make it right again!! B'chessed u b'rachamim!
Last edited by ProudMommie on Wed, Sep 02 2015, 4:41 am; edited 1 time in total
| |
|
| Back to top |
0
10
|
Sanguine
|
Wed, Sep 02 2015, 4:35 am
Can we make some Seder here? Cause this thread is going to win for the longest thread on Imamother and in the end we'll all be as confused as we were on page 1 (or in June when the discussion was on 2 very long threads in LII).
Are there mothers here from SM other than linen and babyblue? can you tell us what's really going on? We all read Rav Berkovitz's March speech but things aren't connecting here. What's going on?
Is the whole community talking about this? Do people say their child was hurt or is it all hush thus all just rumors?
Do parents talk together outside of Gan or Cheder? Do people know for fact (name) of a child hurt in their gan/cheder? More than one?
Do parents talk about safety precautions with their child's ganenet or Rebbe?
Do you discuss this with your neighbors, good friends?
Is Imamother the only place you've heard this discussed? Were you surprised when you started reading it here?
Do you personally know a parent who went to the police to report?
Are you continuing to send your child to gan/cheder?
What does your husband say about this business?
Those are just a few questions that have us all confused. Can anyone answer them (not linen or babyblue, we want to hear from SM (or similar communities) who don't feel that their child experienced this)
| |
|
| Back to top |
0
6
|
ProudMommie
|
Wed, Sep 02 2015, 4:45 am
Sanguine, you have very good questions. I have the same ones in my head too.
After my last post, I think that I am done. At this point I don't know where else to go besides to rehash the same old questions back and forth..
| |
|
| Back to top |
0
4
|
grace413
|
Wed, Sep 02 2015, 4:50 am
| Sanguine wrote: | | Cause this thread is going to win for the longest thread on Imamother |
Not even close.
| |
|
| Back to top |
0
5
|
Sanguine
|
Wed, Sep 02 2015, 5:05 am
| imochka wrote: | Sanguine, you have very good questions. I have the same ones in my head too.
After my last post, I think that I am done. At this point I don't know where else to go besides to rehash the same old questions back and forth.. | Liked your post - especially this part | Quote: | Run to America, the land of safety, oasis?? Please don't advise people to do that, America is no oasis!
HKBH is still in charge!!!! The world is not hefker no matter what anyone says.
Being in Eretz Hakodosh is a tremendous mitzvah and we are zoiche to be living here BH.
Yes, I am scared that evil people with evil motives could hurt us, our children. Yes, but it can happen ANYWHERE!
Here in E'Y we are at home. Yes, this is our home. Yes, there are things to be done... but it is worth investing our energies here NOT in chu'l. This is the land of our fathers and this is where we belong! Period! Anyone who tells you otherwise is lying! | (Didn't you know I would?)
I keep leaving this thread cause as you said - We're rehashing the same questions back and forth. The people who might know something about their community aren't speaking so everything is just rumor here and no one really knows how much to believe about the extent of this craziness. It really is frustrating to keep asking and not getting any concrete answers.
| |
|
| Back to top |
0
5
|
Sanguine
|
Wed, Sep 02 2015, 5:09 am
| grace413 wrote: |
Sanguine wrote:
| Quote: | | Cause this thread is going to win for the longest thread on Imamother |
Not even close. | The way things are going on this thread all the gan kids will be on Imamother themselves before there's an end. Even if they catch he perps today we'll be sure to discuss it for many more pages anyway
| |
|
| Back to top |
0
7
|
5*Mom
|
Wed, Sep 02 2015, 8:41 am
To all the affected imamothers, my heart goes out to you for what your families are going through and for the way that your ordeal is being compounded and you are feeling invalidated on this board. That should never happen. Full stop.
I would like to remind everyone that in a situation like this where accurate information and proper resources are so important, it is better to ask questions and get information directly from the source. People sometimes listen selectively and hear what they want to hear, and then misquote, especially in the context of an argument where everyone has a vested interest in being right. As someone who has spoken to Magen directly, this seems to me to be what is now happening here. This is causing further confusion, actual pain to real people and might be preventing people in need of supportive and therapeutic resources from reaching out for help to those who can provide it.
Magen has been mentioned here as a source for information but their primary mission is as a resource provider. I do not work for Magen but I personally know families who have been helped by them through their own abuse ordeals (not in this context). Parents of children who have suffered any kind of abuse should know that they can turn to Magen for validation, support and professional help. That is their focus. It would be a terrible shame for people to dismiss this wonderful resource based on anonymous information online when real information is accessible in real life.
| |
|
| Back to top |
0
1
|
|
amother
Aubergine
|
Wed, Sep 02 2015, 9:14 am
| MagentaYenta wrote: | | If you have read anything about the McMartin hysteria you would understand why a child who is victimized needs to be interviewed by a qualified and trained professional. | But that's not the case in Israel. If the child is interviewed by a qualified and trained professional, for example a private therapist, the police will consider that evidence tampered with and invalidated.
| |
|
| Back to top |
0
0
|
Sanguine
|
Wed, Sep 02 2015, 9:42 am
| amother wrote: | | But that's not the case in Israel. If the child is interviewed by a qualified and trained professional, for example a private therapist, the police will consider that evidence tampered with and invalidated. | What's the point? We're saying that all the parents know that there's abuse going on in their child's gan and now we just have to make sure that when their child is abused they should run to the police and they'll be the local hero? 
| |
|
| Back to top |
0
2
|
5*Mom
|
Wed, Sep 02 2015, 9:53 am
| amother wrote: | | But that's not the case in Israel. If the child is interviewed by a qualified and trained professional, for example a private therapist, the police will consider that evidence tampered with and invalidated. |
I think it might help to understand how and why the current system evolved. AIUI, it was a combination of cases in which child victims were being put through the ordeal of testifying in court and being subjected to cross examinations, cases in which judges were not accepting the reliability of child testimonies partially due to a lack of uniform standards in gathering those testimonies, and cases of false accusations.
The current system was a joint project of a number of child advocacy organizations, including Mo'etza L'shlom Hayeled and others, in order to mitigate these difficulties. When a child gives videotaped testimony to the social workers at Mercaz Hagana, that testimony is (supposed to be; of course no system is perfect) accepted as if the child had testified on his own in court without actually having to bring the child to testify in court. This is huge, and I was told (although I did not confirm this myself) that at the time that this system was instituted, Israel was the only country to have such a procedure in place to protect victims from the trauma of testifying while still preserving the integrity of their testimony (I'm not sure if others have adopted this by now.) It can also help minimize false accusations, which is something that everyone wants to prevent against. So it is intended for everyone's benefit, but the guidelines do have to be followed for the system to work.
Sometimes, though, it just doesn't work out (the child won't speak; the child will only speak to the *wrong* person) and it isn't necessarily someone's fault.
| |
|
| Back to top |
0
2
|
|
amother
Purple
|
Wed, Sep 02 2015, 10:23 am
| Quote: | Please understand those that are struggling with this because in this crazy world of ours as it is right now in our history, we can no longer just accept someone's word ... to my great pain and sorrow.... Someone could feasibly make this up... who really knows? Someone could have a sick agenda just like the perps who you say touched your life... r'l. It could be many many possibilities I am not going to elaborate on this forum. By the way, have the therapists been investigated too?
|
Exactly what I was thinking the past few days just didn't know how to say it. As believable as linen amother sounds, perhaps she, and R' Berkowitz and Shana are all part of an organized ring with a sinister goal to get all chareidim to leave the country? Sounds far-fetched? yeah, but so does the other version of this story.
And btw, could I know where this 400 number is coming from? 400 children were abused and 3/4 of Israel never heard of anything? and the police are just ignoring?
| |
|
| Back to top |
0
8
|
|
Imamother may earn commission when you use our links to make a purchase.
© 2024 Imamother.com - All rights reserved
|  |
 |
|
 |
|
|
