Anyone happier in public school? (you can go amother)

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Forum -> Chinuch, Education & Schooling

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would you shun a community member for sending to public school?

yes

21%

[ 41 ]

78%

[ 151 ]

Total Votes : 192

mommy3b2c

Thu, Aug 27 2015, 8:52 am

Sanguine wrote:

This subject comes up so often (always worded differently). I would never send my children to pubic school (except Israeli religious public school Smile

) (not talking about special needs kids).

The 12 years that kids go to school are the most formative years of a child's life. Obviously, reading, math, science are important but they're not the most important things in raising children. Now don't shoot me for ranting about Israeli schools. My kid's schools share our Hashkafa. The teachers are honest real life personal life examples for our kids (even the math teachers). Everything they do in school is in a religious Torah atmosphere which influences kids. Even the math teacher saying "Im Yirtze Hashem, I'll return your tests next week" shows the kids that everything in life has to do with Hashem and Torah. Religion isn't something that you put away most the day. It's our life. Tfilla is part of the day. Washing and Benching (for younger kids it's done together, for older kids you're not the odd man out going to wash, and the boys in HS/Yeshiva of course bensch with a zimun. There are Rosh Chodesh Assemblies connected to the Chagim of the month. Always Divrei Torah with each thing since the Torah is intrinsically intertwined in our lives. Chanuka and Purim parties. Tehillim when needed for some action. Trips for Slichot at night (Israel), visiting neighborhood succot, Making Succa decorations, baking Matzot. Shows about the Chagim. Discussions with teachers about issues and values (Jewish ones). Shabbatonim. Bat Mitvzva program. Bar Mitzva program. Learning Torah, Navi Mishna, Gemara, Dinim, perkai Avot, Hashkafa... (I've been mixing elementary and HS activities).

And then there are friends too. All the kids are like you. No one is dressing up for Halloween. No one is singing xmas songs. Everyone is home on Shabbat. You are part of the group for everything. No feeling left out of that ski trip that all your friends went on last Saturday. And, I've found that friends have so much influence on teens. Your school friends become your best friends. They kind of keep each other doing the right things. Someone makes sure to stop the basketball game to go to mincha an the other guys go along too (even if they would have "forgotten" on their own.) The "gang" doesn't stop for hamburgers on the way home and your child just sips a soda... Maybe one French Fry?... What could be treif there? Then your son is paired with a girl for their senior year science project. Great!! The two smartest kids in this science HS. That's what you wanted. Top of the line secular education. Two sweet kids with a lot in common. Discussing their plans for university, maybe medical school. Just enjoying each other's company... Then become best friends (get it?) - did I forget to mention that she's not Jewish? Ooops

So what do you want? You're putting your child in a very tempting situation. Their religious Hashkafa won't be strengthened daily by teachers and friends. Are you expecting your child to treat school like City College where you basically go just for classes about specific subjects?

There are Religious schools that have a strong secular studies department too. It's not one or the other, but if I had to choose only one, Religious school or Bronx School of Science, I know which one I would choose no doubt and which one could be made up later in University.

I'm not knocking people who went to public school but if you're here, you're the ones that stayed religious. I know a few who even intermarried. I don't have statistics and don't yell that there are kids that go to religious schools for 12 years and aren't Dati now. Nothing is failproof but the kid from the religious schools with the religious teachers and religious hashkafa and religious friends has a better chance .

ETA - If you don't feel as enthusiastic about Jewish education as I do, maybe you should find a community that has such a school that really makes the Jewish Religion a livng part of life for kids.

Beautifully said sanguine. Exactly what I was thinking. If there is a good reason to send to public school, go ahead. But to send there for the "better education." Why do people think a secular education is more important then a Jewish education? I really can't wrap my head around it. I come from a family where education is very important. My older brother went to yeshivas that had such a lousy secular education, that only four boys actually sat for the regents. My brother got 100% on basically all of them. Why? Because if a secular education is important to you, you can supplement at home. There is no way to supplement for your child's religious education. All of the examples you gave are excellent proof of that.

mommy3b2c

Thu, Aug 27 2015, 8:56 am

Sanguine wrote:

Her original question has nothing to do with money (maybe later it did but I'm never sure which amother is which). She's asking cause she's turned off to the religious school by one year of preschool and she thinks her kid will get such a much better secular education in public school and the secular education is more important than the Jewish one to her. It's not more important! Religious schools even in America also offer the whole business of chagim, tfilla, mitzvot, hashkafa... They're all now into the business of doing Chessed, special presentations, learn about Israel... (the MO schools). I know MO schools. Secular studies and getting into ivy league schools are on their list too. (they'll have to to be able to pay for their kids to go to that school some day Smile

). MO schools are very M. They want their graduates to be able to compete in the world with everyone else too. If she's talking Bais Yaakov, she may be right about secular education (where are all those insults about writing "would of" from?). But if she's BY type, I don't see her daughter going to Public school in her long skirt, stockings and 3/4 sleeves. Kids have to fit in.

And btw, most bais yaakovs have a fine education. They may not be placing emphasis on college the way MO schools are, but we had good teachers and we learned. In NYS, we all took the same regents and got the same marks as in any other school. If the education was so bad, we wouldn't have had over 50% of the girls getting 90 or above.

amother

Khaki

Thu, Aug 27 2015, 11:04 am

My husband went to public school for part of his schooling and while he got a great secular education (and is not noticably lacking in his Jewish education) he was miserable socially and had hardly any friends. He was much frummer then the other Jewish kids who went there so had little in common with them. He put pressure on his parents to send his younger siblings to a Jewish school because of this.

Barbara

Thu, Aug 27 2015, 11:33 am

mommy2b2c wrote:

Why is there no way to supplement your children's limudei kodesh? Are you and your husband so uneducated that you are unable to teach them?

Now, I want you to respond to the following 3 questions, without googling:

The formula C2H4 can be classified as
(1) a structural formula, only
(2) a molecular formula, only
(3) both a structural formula and an empirical formula
(4) both a molecular formula and an empirical formula

Given the balanced equation representing a reaction:
4Al(s) + 3O2(g) → 2Al2O3(s)
How many moles of Al(s) react completely with 4.50 moles of O2(g) to produce 3.00 moles of Al2O3(s)?
(1) 1.50 mol
(3) 6.00 mol
(2) 2.00 mol
(4) 4.00 mol

What is the percent composition by mass of oxygen in Ca(NO3)2 (gram-formula mass = 164 g/mol)?
(1) 9.8%
(2) 29%
(3) 48%
(4) 59%

Questions selected at random from June 2015 chemistry regents exam.

If the answer is "we can get a tutor" then the answer to limudei kodesh is also "we can get a tutor."

Iymnok

Thu, Aug 27 2015, 11:38 am

Limited kodesh has a Neshama.
Secular/general subjects are facts and data.
You can't subsidize the social aspect.
The depth of a tutor doesn't match up.

Iymnok

Thu, Aug 27 2015, 11:41 am

Barbara wrote:

And how does that make a difference to my life? Does it make me a better person or better eved Hashem?
Where is this relevant besides that test and possible college classes?
(Home-ec on the other hand...)

Barbara

Thu, Aug 27 2015, 11:50 am

Iymnok wrote:

So, you don't value secular education. Just say that. Don't pretend that its important to you, but that you can just supplement at home, and get a good education.

amother

Indigo

Thu, Aug 27 2015, 12:33 pm

Oh Barbara, that is a straw man if ever I heard one. My husband and I both graduated from an Ivy League college, so we most certainly do value secular education, and neither of us would be able to answer those questions without googling or taking a refresher course on Khan Academy. I couldn't answer those because I majored in History and haven't studied chemistry since the 10th grade, and my dh is a software engineer who hasn't done chemistry since freshman year of college. And what's wrong with getting a tutor? Most people who homeschool, even for philosophical (NOT religious) reasons, usually need to hire tutors for at least some high school level stuff. How many parents, of any stripe, still remember trig by the time they have a child old enough to learn it? Are you suggesting that parents who homeschool teenagers don't value education because they may need to hire a tutor for some subjects?
And Jewish studies are completely different. You're not learning it to know stuff to get by in the world, you're learning it to live your life by it. It's a life experience, not something you can just supplement on the side. I am fortunate to have a choice of yeshivas that offer excellence in both Judaic and secular studies, so I don't have to make any difficult choices. I feel for those who do, and I will never judge anyone for doing what's best for their family circumstances. But I personally feel strongly that were my own family in the situation of having to choose, I would choose Jewish schooling and supplement the secular. That doesn't mean I don't value secular education highly, it means I can achieve high standards for it in a way that wouldn't work for the equally high standard of Judaic studies that is important to me.

mommy3b2c

Thu, Aug 27 2015, 12:39 pm

Barbara wrote:

Lol. Chemistry is my worst subject. I am much more of a history/English person. I also enjoy algebra and geometry.

1) I'm not sure what your point is by asking that question. That if I went to public school I would know the answers even 12 years out of high school and if I learned in a bais yaakov I would have forgotten the answers by then?

2) I didn't say that kids can't learn about Judaism from a tutor and that they won't grow up frum. I said that it is a lot easier to supplement secular studies then jewish studies because Judaism is not just subjects, it is a way of life, it is a sense of belonging to our community. Sanguine explained it very well, better than I would have been able to. Feel free to disagree. From my experiences, as long as you value education you can go pretty far even if your yeshiva education was lousy. EVERYONE in my family goes to college. A higher percentage then normal for one family has been valedictorian or close to it.

5mom

Thu, Aug 27 2015, 2:40 pm

The OP was unimpressed by the secular education of her peers who went to Bais Yaakov. So she is looking for a higher level of limudei chol.

It's possible to go to a school with poor secular studies and supplement with tutoring. However, the child will have spent all day saturated in an environment that devalues secular studies. It takes extraordinary motivation to overcome this message. Very few kids succeed under those circumstances.

The same is true for limudei kodesh for a child in public school. Luckily, it's not a complete either/or, if you are willing to look at a wide range of schools.

No place will be perfect. Some place will be good enough.

bfc chat

Thu, Aug 27 2015, 2:48 pm

many children from Hasidic schools speak same way as their grand parents speak with same accents, and horrible grammar with little English, this must end we came to America not Europe,.

amother

Red

Thu, Aug 27 2015, 4:50 pm

OP here- thank you so much to all responders, you've given me lots of perspectives to think about.

For me, it's not about ivy leagues, and the grammer-in-adulthood is beside the point of what I'm really worried about-

My fear is that with less-than-adequately-funded Yeshivah schools, some of which have negative hashkafos about secular subjects they are teaching, my kids might struggle a lot more than if they were in an adequately funded school, where all the teachers believe in the value of the subjects they are teaching. And that struggle will make they think they are not good at anything, when really, a better teacher with more resources could have made all the difference.

Also, I can't afford the Yeshivah schools or the MO schools. And the idea of showing up there with no money makes me very uncomfortable. Even if I'd agree to be a burden...wouldn't my child receive less help in the classroom than children whose families are keeping the school open with their payments and donations?

How well a child does in school can greatly shape their self esteem- so that's my main concern in the quality of overall education- I've seen with so many adults that the self-esteem is THE prerequisite to their relationship with Hashem and their desire to protect and nurture their neshama.

OOTBubby

Thu, Aug 27 2015, 8:41 pm

Barbara wrote:

I went to a top notch public school in a high-income suburb of a big city and I cannot answer any of those questions. Okay, I graduated almost 45 years ago, but I was at the upper end of my class and had good enough SAT scores to earn a state scholarship. And, I am quite sure I couldn't have answered those questions right out of school either. Okay, we didn't have regents, but it was quite a high level school and I did take a bunch of college-level courses (not in sciences though).

Can my kids with yeshiva educations answer those questions. I doubt it, except maybe 1 who was much more of of a science student, but I'm not sure at what level she studied chemistry. However, do those questions matter in life -- NO.

sequoia

Fri, Aug 28 2015, 12:09 am

But they do matter! The more you understand the world, in any area, the less you can be manipulated and deceived.

BrachaBatya

Fri, Aug 28 2015, 12:10 am

bfc chat wrote:

many children from Hasidic schools speak same way as their grand parents speak with same accents, and horrible grammar with little English, this must end we came to America not Europe,.

THIS.

It's unbelievable to see how some Hasidic and other frum children in the USA have atrocious English! Poor grammar, terrible spelling, poor diction, low vocabulary, mixed up word order...it's sad! We have to balance our "American intelligence" with our "Jewish intelligence" somehow.

amother

Saddlebrown

Fri, Aug 28 2015, 12:15 am

My brother insisted on going to public school, and now he is dating a [gentile]

anon for this

Fri, Aug 28 2015, 1:17 am

Barbara wrote:

I haven't taken chemistry since a freshman course in college with a dreadful lab TA. But the second problem is arithmetic and the third problem is arithmetic plus the periodic table. I don't know the periodic table by memory so had to google it but I think that the periodic table is allowed on the regents.

amother

Peach

Fri, Aug 28 2015, 3:04 am

iriska_meller wrote:

Transfered my kids to public school because
1. Could not afford Jewish day school for 2 kids
2. Was appalled by academics (and they positioned themselves as an academically strong school)
3. My daughter was bullied non-stop and when she responded to the offender she got in trouble, and the principal kept pushing me to "evaluate and medicate" her... I had my kid's therapist meet with principal and explain that the kid doesn't need medication, she needs to stop being picked on. Of course the bully was a son of school's board member so nothing happened

I'm very happy with my decision. My kids are super happy in the school, made tons of friends and teachers are amazing. The structure and accountability are really impressive.

This is in Brooklyn btw

How old are you kids? What gender? Which public school? Would love to look into Brooklyn schools.

chickpea_salad

Fri, Aug 28 2015, 5:12 am

I went to several different public schools, and I had a few excellent teachers. I think it is a case-by-case sort of thing with public schools in general, but especially in the US where education is funded by the county.

Where DH and I live now, there is a Jewish day school that is really very good, and that I would WANT my (future) kids to go to. But we might be moving again soon, and I don't know if that will be true in the next city we live in.

Sanguine

Fri, Aug 28 2015, 5:42 am

mommy2b2c wrote:

Sorry. I made a mistake. I always think of those "would of" fights here, but maybe they're between BY graduates and (Satmar?). I shouldn't have said BY, I just didn't want to point a finger at Satmar specifically (now some Satmar lady will lynch me - I know I've seen fights about "would of" here so I guess BY was defending "would've"

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