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Did jews persecute others?
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yo'ma




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Sep 04 2015, 7:04 am
Not as individuals, but as a group, as being jews. I'm asking about all throughout history and towards another religion or not. I skimmed through the Wikipedia page about christians being persecuted and it lists jews and this is why I ask.
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Sadie




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Sep 04 2015, 7:06 am
Early Christianity was a messianic offshoot of Judaism, so mainstream Judaism of the time probably considered it heretical and tried to suppress it.
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etky




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Sep 04 2015, 7:22 am
Yochanan Hyrcanus forcibly converted the Idumeans in southern Judea during the second century BCE.
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etky




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Sep 04 2015, 7:27 am
Sadie wrote:
Early Christianity was a messianic offshoot of Judaism, so mainstream Judaism of the time probably considered it heretical and tried to suppress it.


Yes - but they weren't really in a political position to actually persecute.
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imasoftov




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Sep 04 2015, 11:25 am
Do the Seven Nations count?
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trixx




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Sep 04 2015, 3:16 pm
My immediate and overarching answer would be a resounding no. When were Jews ever in a position to politically even persecute? During conquering the land maybe, but that's not persecutin it's just an invading army. Maybe during the reign of Jewish kings but then that would be the one king or crazy sect not all of Jews. In general Jews tried to lay low... We don't missionize... And for sure middle ages onward we were in no superior position to do anything of the sort!
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trixx




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Sep 04 2015, 3:17 pm
The only true persecution we can do is against amalek - and the one time the opportunity arose it wasn't even fulfilled lol I don't think Jews are capable. All of our revolts were admirable but ultimately failures...
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boymom




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Sep 04 2015, 3:22 pm
trixx wrote:
The only true persecution we can do is against amalek - and the one time the opportunity arose it wasn't even fulfilled lol I don't think Jews are capable. All of our revolts were admirable but ultimately failures...


you're talking about the story of purim?
and which failed attempts of revolting are you talking about? im thinking of the warsaw ghetto but can't think of anything else.
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amother
Hotpink


 

Post Fri, Sep 04 2015, 3:29 pm
boymom wrote:
you're talking about the story of purim?
and which failed attempts of revolting are you talking about? im thinking of the warsaw ghetto but can't think of anything else.

She's referring to Shaul failing to kill Agag (if not for that, Haman would never have been born). And there have been many failed revolts, particularly in Roman times- Masada, Beotar, Bar Kochba, when R Yochanan Ben Zakkai had to sneak out of the city in a coffin so that the revolutionaries wouldn't prevent him from speaking to the Romans- and even Chanukah was only a temporarily successful revolt, as the Hasmomenans eventually became corrupt and became initially what they had fought against.
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zaq




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Sep 04 2015, 6:02 pm
trixx wrote:
The only true persecution we can do is against amalek - and the one time the opportunity arose it wasn't even fulfilled lol I don't think Jews are capable. All of our revolts were admirable but ultimately failures...


A revolt against a foreign invader is self-defense, not persecution.
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imasoftov




 
 
    
 

Post Sat, Sep 05 2015, 1:58 pm
trixx wrote:
The only true persecution we can do is against amalek - and the one time the opportunity arose it wasn't even fulfilled lol I don't think Jews are capable. All of our revolts were admirable but ultimately failures...

I'm unclear about what you mean by "wasn't even fulfilled". Do you mean that we killed them all except for Agag, who was later killed by Shmuel, or do you mean that we didn't kill anyone at all?
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etky




 
 
    
 

Post Sat, Sep 05 2015, 2:15 pm
imasoftov wrote:
Do the Seven Nations count?


Maybe.
At first glance one would think that it is just a simple matter of conquest but really there is a flavor of persecution in the manner in which we are ordered to treat them ie. not tolerating their presence because of the culture that they represent.
I'm not sure though if historically -other than with the Gibonites - anything more than straightforward warfare was ever realized in our interaction with them.
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5mom




 
 
    
 

Post Sat, Sep 05 2015, 2:49 pm
Historically, Jews have usually usually been on the wrong end of persecutions. But it's smug and unhelpful to imagine that we could not become oppressors. We try hard to be moral (exhibit A- guidelines for IDF soldiers) but the reality of political Independence means that we need to be vigilant. It's only impressive to be gentle when you have other options.

What I mean is, there's nothing in Jewish DNA that prevents us from ever being cruel. But there's a lot in the Torah that teaches us kindness. The Torah repeats the mizvah not to oppress the stranger. Apparently, Hashem sees that we might do this. So why would we think we are immune?
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Laiya




 
 
    
 

Post Sat, Sep 05 2015, 10:15 pm
The best that I could come up with was this:
http://en.metapedia.org/wiki/J.....tians

I've never heard of metapedia before, but the page is clearly anti-Semitic, based on the way its written (ex. "Jewboy").

Its claims of Jewish persecution of Christians are that individual Jews reported Christians to the Romans and Persians, resulting in Christian deaths, and other alleged political acts by individuals or small groups throughout history.

Interestingly, it blames the deaths of 80 million people during the Bolshevik uprisings and other deaths attributed to Communism on a Jew--Marx.

Anyway, if this is the best they could come up with....

ETA Of course there's always the complaints of the horribly cruel IDF Rolling Eyes


Last edited by Laiya on Sun, Sep 06 2015, 10:08 am; edited 1 time in total
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trixx




 
 
    
 

Post Sat, Sep 05 2015, 10:20 pm
amother wrote:
She's referring to Shaul failing to kill Agag (if not for that, Haman would never have been born). And there have been many failed revolts, particularly in Roman times- Masada, Beotar, Bar Kochba, when R Yochanan Ben Zakkai had to sneak out of the city in a coffin so that the revolutionaries wouldn't prevent him from speaking to the Romans- and even Chanukah was only a temporarily successful revolt, as the Hasmomenans eventually became corrupt and became initially what they had fought against.


Yes exactly, thanks
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trixx




 
 
    
 

Post Sat, Sep 05 2015, 10:21 pm
imasoftov wrote:
I'm unclear about what you mean by "wasn't even fulfilled". Do you mean that we killed them all except for Agag, who was later killed by Shmuel, or do you mean that we didn't kill anyone at all?


Except for Agag. Meaning even the killing of Amalek was never completely fulfilled as human mercy came in the way of doing hashem's will
ETA: although he was later killed by shmuel, he had already planted the seeds no pun... am I the only one who wondered as a kid how they "got married" in prison? like, where did she get a white dress from?? lol
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causemommysaid




 
 
    
 

Post Sat, Sep 05 2015, 11:10 pm
Yup- we conquered the nations of Canaan in the time of Yehoshua and took over their country.

The fact that we said that God said to do that doesn't change the reality
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trixx




 
 
    
 

Post Sat, Sep 05 2015, 11:48 pm
causemommysaid wrote:
Yup- we conquered the nations of Canaan in the time of Yehoshua and took over their country.

The fact that we said that God said to do that doesn't change the reality


? This is not persecution - it's a conquering army. In fact they gave the canaanim options to surrender or flee.

I would argue however that killing all idol worshippers might be called persecution.
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etky




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Sep 06 2015, 12:15 am
trixx wrote:
? This is not persecution - it's a conquering army. In fact they gave the canaanim options to surrender or flee.

I would argue however that killing all idol worshippers might be called persecution.


Yes, they could either flee - as the Girgashi did - or stay, as a subjugated people and give up their religion (avoda zara) and culture. That's persecution. Or they could fight which is the option that they overwhelmigly chose. So those who stayed had the option of fighting or facing persecution for who they were.
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trixx




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Sep 06 2015, 12:22 am
etky wrote:
Yes, they could either flee - as the Girgashi did - or stay, as a subjugated people and give up their religion (avoda zara) and culture. That's persecution. Or they could fight which is the option that they overwhelmigly chose. So those who stayed had the option of fighting or facing persecution for who they were.


Interesting way of looking at it (as religious persecution) but again I would say all's fair in war... they still had resources and their own army, and were able to band together to fight at Givon. so I see it less as inhumane persecution and more as just what went down in those days - whoever is stronger is the winner.
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