Did jews persecute others?

etky

Sun, Sep 06 2015, 12:42 am

trixx wrote:

Interesting way of looking at it (as religious persecution) but again I would say all's fair in war... they still had resources and their own army, and were able to band together to fight at Givon. so I see it less as inhumane persecution and more as just what went down in those days - whoever is stronger is the winner.

But we had an ideology, a mitzva, to 'wipe them out' religiously - by either regular warfare or by forcing them to abandon their religion/culture. That was not typical of ancient warfare. Generally, if one nation subjugated the other, they might insist that the local populace pay homage to their God as well as the local ones, but normally the conquering people were not bent on the absolute religious/cultural eradication of the people they conquered. Our wars with the 7 nations was not only a conflict over land. It was an ideological clash and we were commanded to ensure that our monotheistic ideology predominated in the Land by wiping out their idolatry. So from their perspective that was persecution.
By your definition one can't really call the Roman's treatment of the Jews - even Hadrian's decrees, persecution.

imasoftov

Sun, Sep 06 2015, 5:55 am

trixx wrote:

Except for Agag. Meaning even the killing of Amalek was never completely fulfilled as human mercy came in the way of doing hashem's will
ETA: although he was later killed by shmuel, he had already planted the seeds no pun... am I the only one who wondered as a kid how they "got married" in prison? like, where did she get a white dress from?? lol

The question was "Did Jews persecute others?"

It seems to me that if wiping out an entire nation counts as persecution, so does letting a few of them escape.

But I'm not sure if Shaul showed mercy. Maybe he thought that it's fine to kill the enemy's women and babies, but the king should be inviolate. Maybe that was the ethic of the time, there can be huge piles of spear-carriers on the stage but when the curtain goes down the main actors are still standing. Or at least get to sing an aria while dying.

Or maybe it was self interest, if Shaul leaves Agag alive, and Shaul loses a battle some day, his foes will spare him.

Look at the Canaanite king in Shoftim 1 who had cut off the thumbs and toes of 70 other kings and let them gather scraps underneath his table, when we did the same to him he viewed that as just retribution. But he still kept them alive.

I don't know why Yehoyachin was imprisoned and eventually released while Tzidkiyahu was executed (last chapters of both Melachim and Yirmiyahu), maybe the Babylonians felt more betrayed by the latter because they had appointed him, but otherwise you didn't kill conquered kings.

I'm also suspecting Shaul of a personal interest in sparing Agag just like the people had a personal interest in sparing the livestock. Even though they planned to use them for sacrifices, there's still some benefit - if you bring an animal as an olah the cohen keeps the skin (having a cohen in the temple who owes you a favor can't hurt ...) and if you make it a shlamim you get to eat most of it yourself.

FranticFrummie

Sun, Sep 06 2015, 9:04 am

When I read the title, sadly, my first thought was of Jews persecuting other Jews.

The loss of the Second Temple.
Rabbi Akiva's students.
Nazi kapos.
The BDS protesters.
Charedim spraying bleach on women who's skirts are not long enough, the wrong color, etc.
Throwing rocks at cars on Shabbos.
Pretty much any editorial in the New York Times.

Truly, we can often be our own worst enemy. Crying

boymom

Sun, Sep 06 2015, 11:09 am

5mom wrote:

Historically, Jews have usually usually been on the wrong end of persecutions. But it's smug and unhelpful to imagine that we could not become oppressors. We try hard to be moral (exhibit A- guidelines for IDF soldiers) but the reality of political Independence means that we need to be vigilant. It's only impressive to be gentle when you have other options.

What I mean is, there's nothing in Jewish DNA that prevents us from ever being cruel. But there's a lot in the Torah that teaches us kindness. The Torah repeats the mizvah not to oppress the stranger. Apparently, Hashem sees that we might do this. So why would we think we are immune?

I don't have much to add to this topic, but when I read your post , specifically the bolded part, I just want to say, that although we cant find any difference in a Jews DNA scientifically, we do know that the essence of a Yid is the fact that we are "rachmanim, bayshanim and gomlei chasadim" . someone that has the middah of rachmonis running deeply through his blood vessels, will generally not be cruel. there are always unfortunate exceptions to the rule, but as a general whole, yidden have these middos ingrained in them forever.

imasoftov

Sun, Sep 06 2015, 11:44 am

boymom wrote:

It seems to me that this is something we must work to attain, not something we can take as a given. Support for my position may possibly be found in Pirkei Avot, which tells us to become students of Aharon Hakohen in the first chapter and also contrasts students of Avraham Avinu to those of Bilaam Harasha in the fifth, students have to work at their studies.

etky

Sun, Sep 06 2015, 11:50 am

Laiya wrote:

Individual Jews assisting another regime is still different than a "Jewish regime" whose whole purpose is to persecute people of a specific race / religion / political affiliation, etc.

Especially when, in many cases, those individual's survival depended on their cooperation with the persecuting regime.
I'm not judging or exonerating - just saying that people will often do drastic things that they wouldn't normally do if their lives and those of their family didn't depend on it.