teen ds moving more to the right.....

amother

Peach

Tue, Sep 08 2015, 9:51 am

teen ds is moving more to the right than where we are. ( we are plain old frum, kosher shabbat, hair covering mikvah etc. young isrsael style frum)At first we were very proud- ds was learning more, cutting out TV/movies/ sports watching. so we are cool with that, but now we are seeing that he won't say good Shabbos to women/ girls walking past us on Shabbos. he looks away or down if the nurse at doc office isn't fully covered up. He I starting to resent when dh shares his opinion on politics as well as shul politics. It is to the point where I feel he does not want to live with us anymore. He did not say that in so many words, but he did ask last night if he could switch schools to a dorm school like Ner Yisroel in Baltimore. He is not happy with his school's secular studies, part of him feels he should be learning more torah and the other feels that some of his classes are a waste( I can't argue with some of the latter cuz somehow we got dupped this year into mandatory classes (history science etc.)that are not what one would expect.
I see him changing. I see him looking down at people who are not as "frum". Thinking non jews are not as good as we are. if a non jewish teacher said something crazy like the sky is falling and a rebbi said the same thing he would be running for cover cuz the rebbi said it.
This is not who we are. We have tried to teach our children to have respect for everyone as well as not everything someone with a beard says may be true(we have had many experiences with it and have been hurt by it) We feel it is important to always keep your eyes open, respect everyone, be polite to everyone.
I think it is crazy for me to be complaining because he is on the derech, he is healthy, smart well liked etc. and yet I feel he is pulling away from us. We know he is getting all of this from school as our older boys went to the same yeshiva, but they were able to take it with a grain of salt and see when prejudice and racism were coming up and ignore it. yes comments about African American people etc- we called the rebbi out on it as well as the headmaster. This child is is taking everything the rabbeim say like it is free candy and gobbling it up and that normally should be great, but not when it turns you into a frummy holier than thou snob- that is not what hashem wants!!!!
We definitely need a mentor to direct him, but just don't seem to know the right person. Would love for him to go to NCSY and make a kesher with the rav there, but he won't go because there are girls and some are not dressed so "properly". His grandmothers and aunts cousins wear pants/shorts etc. so I know he is not getting these ideas from us about properly dressed, plenty of women wearing sheitels, tight shirts snd skirts and I think he would be ok with that- which of course makes no sense. Is it bad to force him not a situation that he doesn't want to be in?

Not sure what our options are. I don't want to send him away, I think it is important for children to be able to see how adults/ parents/ husband wife relationships interact. Also want to keep tabs on what is going on and before I know it he will be all grown up and out the door anyway.
There is another school in the neighborhood, but it is co-ed and he does not want to go there and I have heard that his grade in that school has its own issues.

We could pull him- home school him and find a rebbi to teach him, but then he will really have no social life.

he is old enough to take the GEDs so he could go for college classes, but I am not sure if that will help either.

Wish I could talk to the principal and say yes it is beautiful that he is learning and loves torah, but stop brainwashing him to be holier than thou.

Las year and years past- he was a good sweet mentsch, just don't know what to do to get my boy back before he goes too far.
any ideas- was up all night crying, asking hashem for guidance, then feeling terrible because there are so many people out there who have problems so much wore than mine and then crying again because it looks ungrateful for all the good that I have. It was a long night. I think my dh felt my vibes cuz he woke up this morning in a lousy mood.

FranticFrummie

Tue, Sep 08 2015, 9:58 am

G-d willing, this should be the worst thing that happens to you.

Let him go off to the dorms. He's obviously interested in testing his wings and becoming more independent. He's seen family dynamics, marriage, etc. his whole life, I'm sure you've given him a healthy and realistic foundation so far.

This may be a phase, it may not, but a teen is not a young child. He's nearly a man, and needs to make some adult decisions. If changing his course of studies is what he wants to try, I don't see the harm in it. If he were doing something truly stupid or dangerous, I would answer very differently.

I understand that you feel like he is rejecting you and your values, but I don't feel like this is actually the case. Teens need to branch out and find out for themselves who exactly they are, and they can't do that if they are not allowed to try on different lifestyle roles (within safe parameters, of course!)

He's not doing drugs, shacking up with strange women, or joining the Moonies, he just wants to learn more Torah!

Count your blessings.

FranticFrummie

Tue, Sep 08 2015, 10:09 am

amother wrote:

Thanks frantic frummie- haven't heard about the moonies in I don't know how many years- it made me laugh! My Mom used to say, "you have to watch out for the moonies."

I do want him to spread his wings and fly, we actually suggested he do early admissions for next year and go to Israel for the year and learn there. I just don't want him to turn into the stereotypical yeshiva kid who thinks non jews are beneath them as well as anyone who is not at their same frumkeit level.

,

Well, he may, or he may not, go whacky about non Jews for a while. You don't know that for sure yet. Even if he does, just be there to model good middos for him. "New BT Syndrome" is a real thing, but eventually the pendulum will swing and settle back towards the center.

Perhaps you can find a compromise, and send him to a yeshiva in Israel that is more MO. Travel is good for opening up the mind to new points of view, and meeting a very wide variety of Jews, and non Jews as well.

5mom

Tue, Sep 08 2015, 10:11 am

It's hard to know at this age how much is genuine religious change and how much is a teenager's natural need to establish himself as separate from his parents.

There is not much to do to dissuade him from his new direction. Obviously, it would have been best to send him to a school that is closer to your own hashkafa, but that's water under the bridge. (Though if you have younger kids, you may want to consider it.)

At this point, I think the main thing is to keep communication open. Explain, from a Torah perspective, why you disagree, but don't expect him to listen. It may take a while to sink in. It may never sink in.

And whatever you do, don't send him to a yeshiva in Israel that disrespects you and your derech. Do your homework. I am amazed at how many parents put more research into buying a laptop than finding an appropriate yeshiva. Visit. Talk to rebbeim and alumni. Get a sense for whether they see you as a partner or an obstacle.

Depending on what motivates him, he may or may not appreciate the derech in which he was raised. But he's your child and even (especially) in these prickly years, he needs your unconditional love.

Chayalle

Tue, Sep 08 2015, 10:30 am

If it helps any, coming from someone a bit more right-wing...one of my sisters married a boy who moved to the right of his family. He probably went thru alot of what you describe as a teen, but today he considers his parents to be his role models in mentchlichkeit. He's a really balanced person who loves Torah and learning, but is well-rounded because of the fine home he grew up in. He has really close, strong ties to his parents, whom he loves dearly.

Your son is a teen and is going thru what alot of teens go thru. He has to find himself, and he's gravitating to the right. If you strive to keep your relationship with him positive, he will B"EH find a central place for himself where he can adapt to a lifestyle that works for him, that also incorporates everything you have taught him about the world, in a balanced way.

I don't know that the answers are in terms of whether he should go to a dorm or not, but you mention that you wish you could speak to his principal about your concerns...why don't you? As parents in the school you can request a meeting in which you can discuss your concerns and what would be best for your son. You don't have to take his advice, but his perspective might be worth hearing. Communication with those who are with your son for a major part of his day, can be really beneficial.

5mom has given you some excellent advice too...what she says.

Sanguine

Tue, Sep 08 2015, 10:33 am

You send him to a Yeshiva which is more Right than you so if he's a good, serious student, he should be Righter than you. There are all these Public School threads here where people argue that it's more important for a kid to get the daily dose of Torah life Hashkafa than better math classes. You took a risk sending your son to a Yeshiva that isn't exactly your Hashkafa (there's never a school that's exactly a fit). Your other sons just gained from it - It's always good to give the kids a little more. But this son didn't just pick the parts you wanted. He picked a new Hashkafa.

I don't think you have to take the black hat off his head (I don't think you can). What you have to do now is look very closely into the different Yeshivot (if he's going to dorm anyway). (Maybe Ner Yisroel in Baltimore which he wants is OK but maybe not - I have no idea). Look closely for a good Yeshiva that can fit the Right Hashkafa that he wants but is more open-worldly. One that's a little less stringent. Dorming away from home might actually be good for him to clear this anti out of his head. There are many ultra-orthodox men who don't look down when a woman is in the room. You have to find one of those Yeshivas that raises that type of man.

FranticFrummie

Tue, Sep 08 2015, 10:35 am

No, not NCSY! That will totally backfire on you, and him both. (Nothing against NCSY, they do good work, it's just not a good fit for your son.)

Mir is also not a good fit, unless he is super disciplined and can learn long hours in intense conditions. A friend of mine's son learns there, and it is only for the very serious and dedicated.

Be open to letting him go, but tell him to you need to have more input as to the choice of yeshivas. Make up a list of what you would be comfortable with, and then discuss the pros and cons of each one. If he does well, then he can always apply to Mir the following year.

I don't know about your community, but I became frum with some very RW Yeshivish kiruv rabbis. They were such wonderful role models, because although they were very RW in their personal lives, they modeled love and acceptance of Jews from all levels of observance, and were always polite and respectful to non Jews. Not making a chillul Hashem was a very big deal by them. I consider myself extremely lucky to have had their guidance. If you can find people like that, they would be ideal for your son.

be good

Tue, Sep 08 2015, 11:09 am

I would sit down with him and tell him what you are thinking.
Make sure to start with praise and love (I am so proud, you are so special, etc), end with praise and love (I love to spend time with you, we will always love and support you), and in between, tell him these issues that are important to you. Tell him how important it is to you that no matter what he have derech eretz for non-jews, all jews, etc. discuss with him how its is of utmost importance to make a kiddish Hashem and not ever make others feel less. Mention pirkei avow, eyzehu chahcam halomed mikol adam, etc. I think it will help.

Aside from that, maybe a dorm is a good idea if it is what he wants, it very well may make him enjoy home more, absence makes the heart grow fonder. He is a big boy, you can't 'send him' to NCSY if he doesn't want. Just make sure his interactions with you and his father are happy and that you model the acceptance, respect and love that you value, toward your son and to those he respects.

fluffernutter

Tue, Sep 08 2015, 11:57 am

Make sure that wherever he ends up he has a Rebbi that he can form a kesher with who will teach him appropriately. This way, you can also call the Rebbi if you want to get a handle on where he is holding, and you can express your feelings to the Rebbi as well - this will help him guide your son to be able to be who he wants to be, and grow, but also be comfortable in your home - and you'll be comfortable with him. Ner Yisroel actually sounds like a good fit haskafically. The boys don't come out farfrumpt. More right wing, but normal about it. I think they take the outside world into consideration.

I also suggest making sure that he knows you still respect him for his choices. Having done something similar, as did my DH, the best things came out of knowing that our parents respected us. And vs. For example,if he doesn't want to be looking at girls, try to keep the non Jewish newspapers more covered up or not sitting in the main living area - that way he doesn't feel like he is fighting just to be who he wants to be, in his own house. I'm not saying to totally change your life or to be bending to his every need, but the are some small things that will make living at home a much more pleasant experience for him. And a positive example - I was making a change that involved self control, and after a few months one of my parents made a point of saying "wow. I'm really impressed with you. I see you a serious about this." It meant the world to me, and helped keep me at it.

PinkFridge

Tue, Sep 08 2015, 12:10 pm

I wish you lots of hatzlacha and nachas.
Right now he's growing and running so fast he's overshooting the mark. As he matures, like the old Mark Twain aphorism, he's going to realize what he's done and will be grateful for your support till now.
No, NCSY isn't a good idea. It could be the directors might be good people to talk to or for him to talk to, but participating in NCSY isn't where he's at right now.
I'm a big advocate for keeping high school boys home when there's a decent, even if imperfect school, and the home situation isn't toxic (and yours is much higher than that low bar, I'm sure, which means it's wonderful for him to be with you now). OTOH, a good dorm high school like NI might be good, especially if you develop a relationship with some of the staff so you'll all be working together.
He's not ready for Mir. Most boys his age aren't. A teenager going to Israel needs a different type of yeshiva with much more hands on supervision. Going to a place like NI for a few years could be really good for him.
May you continue to see nachas as he finds his way.

amother

Peach

Tue, Sep 08 2015, 1:44 pm

Thank you so much for all of the chizuk and advice about se3nding away or not and NCSY etc.!

To answer why he is at the yeshiva school - there are only 2 choices in schools, one more to -the right of us and one more to the left- we figured it was better to move more to the right as one poster said than have him regret something he may do in the future if he was pulled to the left. And of course one wants their child to be greater in Torah learning and get nachas from that as well. When he started the school it was center right, which was great, but they got a new principal and he is moving it even more to the right. The principal has an air of authority about him and the boys are afraid/respect him which is great, but when you start calling chalav stam- chalav yishmael, that's when the seeds of obnoxious holier than thou get planted and that's the road ds is starting to go down. ( I have probably outed myself to a whole bunch of amothers just now by writing that.)
anyway- all of your words of wisdom have calmed me down and have greatly helped me!!
Thank you so much!

FranticFrummie

Tue, Sep 08 2015, 2:11 pm

You sound like really awesome parents for being so in touch, sensitive, and involved with your son. With a background like that, how could he go wrong?

I forgot to ask, where is he in his teens, and how mature is he? There's a huge difference between 14 and 17. Also, a 15yo can be extremely mature, and a 17yo can be impulsive and hard to control. That all has to be taken into consideration when you decide to send out or not. If he's in his upper teens, fairly competent and independent, and mature, then I don't see why you can't let him try it out. If he's younger and not so balanced yet, then you should try to find a way to get him to wait another year, and revisit the dorm idea later.

For example, I have a friend who's 15yo boy is a poor learner, impulsive, and needs to be home schooled. His 14yo sister went away to BY, and came home a refined young lady! The older brother is still a bit of a goofball, and in no way ready to leave home yet. It all depends on the kid.

boysrus

Tue, Sep 08 2015, 2:25 pm

just an observation:
it sounds to me like your biggest part of teh problem is the principal, hanhala adn rebbeim. It is nebach that in our kids schools the teachers are not always adequate role models of mentchlichkeit. for example, I know for a fact that my sons current 10th grade rebbi is very racist and says racist things in class about our african american neighbors. I cannot handle this, it makes me so angry. and you know what, I have been known to complain to rebbeim about this.
if your sons principal is calling cholov stam, cholov yishamel, that's crazy! he is part of the source of teh proble,

I woudl suggest you call a meeting between yourself, your dh, principal and rebbi, adn say
my kid is doing great, you are helping to make him into a great frum guy, but I am so so bothered by what else is happening to him. You (rebbi and principal) are so influential on him htat he is picking up on your imperfections too without realizing that theyare imperfections. why is he becoming racist? why are you teaching him that frum means OTT about not looking at women etc? what is going on?

you h ave to advocate for your child. unfortunatley I see this problem happening in mykids schools too. Some kids likeyour son like it and get brainwashed by it, others get turned off by it and drop out or even go OTD

I wish you luck. Ner israel might be similar to your school in brainwashing tactics, no way of knowing wihtout talking to people who send their kids there....