Disillusioned and scared...

amother

Orchid

Thu, Sep 24 2015, 8:37 am

A child of mine was abused by a few people who worked in their school. I have a few children under school age, this is my oldest. I'm not going to go into detail about it, I'm just setting up my questions.

Seeing the way it was covered up by different staff members, and Rabbanim, and the way it was not believed by other parents, and the way the community has been silent, just makes me really afraid for raising my kids in the frum system. I know that this is not specific to my community, but can and has happened repeatedly in Jewish and non-Jewish religious communities where there was a well-founded accusation of child s-xual abuse.

My question to those of you with lots of kids already in the system:
Do you worry for your children when they're out of your care? Where would you turn if they one day told you the worst? And if those pleas for help were unheeded, or you received threats from within the community, what would you do then?

I also have a lot of questions now concerning the Torah- if women and children can't give eidus, what is a s-xual abuse victim to do when their perpetrator (obviously) denies it? Where can they turn? Yes there are police but what about our religious leaders? How could Hashem have left victims unprotected?
What is the problem with Agunos? Why can't they be freed? How could Hashem have made it too complicated to figure out for today's talmidei chachamim? I understand bad things happening in general in life, but this is a problem resulting from a lack of an ability to poskin? Not from an illness, or a bad mistake, but a gap in Torah knowledge? With all of the learning we have today?

Sorry for the negativity. I'm really trying to understand how I can work this out.

amother

Orchid

Thu, Sep 24 2015, 8:41 am

I'm not an agunah (I'm married) but I have questions now about the parts of Torah that seem to leave women and children unprotected.

What about that you can find halachic loopholes for child s-xual abuse even if some Rabbanim today oppose it on principle, but the halacha itself somehow allows it? How could there be no explicit obvious halachic prohibition in the Torah or Oral Torah?

Again, I'm not attacking, and I'm not political, just disillusioned.

Laiya

Thu, Sep 24 2015, 9:59 am

OP, I am so so sorry for your horrible situation.

Regarding the religion/G-d question, dh has made this point and I think it's a good one: Torah is supposed to evolve with the times, and it did--but only with all areas of halacha OTHER than criminal matters.

Beis din has not had jurisdiction (or enforcement power) over criminal matters for millennia, and therefore, the halacha with regards to criminal matters has not "evolved" so as to fit with modern times.

(I don't know much about gittin, but I heard that the original intent of the halacha as it now stands was to protect women, due to the typical circumstances of the times.)

Another sad aspect of golus, I guess.

Hugs.

fromthedepths

Thu, Sep 24 2015, 10:03 am

I'm so sorry for what you and your child went through! Hope you find healing and peace of mind soon.

The Rav to go to for these issues is Rav Dovid Cohen. He'll have the answers about eidus, as he's dealt with this and has a very clear shitta on reporting the abuser. You can pm me for his phone number and hours if you need it.

sneakermom

Thu, Sep 24 2015, 10:09 am

There are some rabbonim who are enablers by interpreting Halacha in a way that whitewashes the sin of s-xual abuse.

There are other very sensitive wise rabbonim who call out abuse and say it like it is - an obomination! Someone like rabbi Yacov Horowitz for example.

I am frum because I am part of a long chain of mesorah of yidden who believed in Hashem and lived a Torah life. Sometimes with great sacrifice.

I am frum because I saw that despite the horrors my grandparents experienced in the holocaust they never gave up their yiddishkeit. If they did it then I can do it.

I am frum because I intrinsically know that there is a piece of G-d in me that craves to connect to it's source - Hashem. And I know Hashem gave us the Torah for our benefit to help us achieve that.

I am appalled at the s-xual abuse going on. I am furious at any rav who condones or enables the abuse. I am sad that some communities have their head in the sand.

As a frum community we need to stand up and say- no more! Never again!
And I think that's starting to happen. But there's lots of work that still needs to be done!

amother

Orchid

Thu, Sep 24 2015, 7:04 pm

Laiya wrote:

Thank you. I don't understand your husband's point- what are defined as criminal matters, when did the Beis Din have power over them, when/why was it relinquished, and who took the place of Beis Din in governing a flawed society?

amother

Orchid

Thu, Sep 24 2015, 7:08 pm

DrMom wrote:

There are halachic ways to reduce the agunah problem, but many authorities are resistant to enacting them.

If anyone (chas v'shalom) abused by child, I'd go to whichever authority I thought would be most swift and harsh in punishing the perpetrator.

And after that, in the weeks and months it takes for things to actually proceed with the authorities, if you received threats and your entire family was ostracized, what would you do?

And if justice was served to the perpetrator, yet the community stood firmly by him and held you in contempt, what would you do?

If a frum person does the right thing, which causes the family terrible suffering on top of the suffering their child already experienced, should they just live in isolation from the frum community? Or spend their life trying to convince people in the community to believe them?

Bruria

Thu, Sep 24 2015, 7:22 pm

If someone receives threats for reporting to the police, the police should be notified of the threats and hopefully the family should try and get protection.
Reporting to the police is important because that is the only way to stop abusers and protect other children.
If someone or a group of people tries to shun a family for reporting abuse, that community or those people are not worth it!
There are many nice communities with nice people, no one should live in a community that has such inverted values.
Chatima Tovah, I hope you receive many brachot and have a sweet year.

amother

Green

Thu, Sep 24 2015, 9:19 pm

chani8 wrote:

I lived the child molestation horror and I'm no longer 'so frum'. It is not the Torah's fault, not G-d's fault. It is all the fault of the 'messed up rabbonim' and the 'messed up community members who hold by those rabbonim'.

Don't need to read anything beyond this, OP. I used to be very frum, went OTD because of the terrible things I saw and heard, and then realized THAT is not God, THAT is not Judaism.
Now I'm MO, and I can more easily question Rabbinic authority, and I live in communities where the police are the first call. I don't know what to tell you beyond ... learn to separate what is God/Torah/Judaism and what is some sick people who are drunk on power.

Soph

Thu, Sep 24 2015, 9:59 pm

first of all I am so sorry you are going through this, may Hashem give you clarity and help you. From far far away you'll be in my prayers, Hashem will know who you are.

have you tried contacting jcw?
http://www.jewishcommunitywatch.org
its this amazing organization that helps you with all the things you need, from guidance to resources.

lots of love.

Laiya

Thu, Sep 24 2015, 10:11 pm

amother wrote:

The beis din no longer metes out capital punishment, no stoning, whipping, etc.

I would like to think that, if the b"d had power over these matters throughout the years, then halacha would have evolved so that today, pedophilia would be seen plainly, halachicly, as the crime that it is, and appropriate punishments given.

chani8

Fri, Sep 25 2015, 8:51 am

octopus wrote:

there are more than a few rabbanim that hold that a pedophile has a din of a rodeph- that of a murderer and deserves the same punishment.

And then they beg the judge to go easy on the sentencing and give accommodations for religious needs.

They are still very confused these days. A rodef does not deserve kosher food and isolation from the rest of the inmates.

Laiya

Fri, Sep 25 2015, 8:58 am

octopus wrote:

there are more than a few rabbanim that hold that a pedophile has a din of a rodeph- that of a murderer and deserves the same punishment.

The b"d does not have any enforcement power. Calling someone rodef, in practice, more or less amounts to lip service (which I agree is, at times better than nothing at all)

youngishbear

Fri, Sep 25 2015, 9:19 am

chani8 wrote:

And then they beg the judge to go easy on the sentencing and give accommodations for religious needs.

They are still very confused these days. A rodef does not deserve kosher food and isolation from the rest of the inmates.

I think the idea is that doing one (or many) heinous aveiros and crimes does not absolve him of other mitzvos. If the goal of prison is to keep him off the streets, then the mission has been accomplished, and punishment is for Hashem to dispense.

But I agree with you that this attitude is still very messed up.

imasoftov

Sat, Sep 26 2015, 2:14 pm

octopus wrote:

there are more than a few rabbanim that hold that a pedophile has a din of a rodeph- that of a murderer and deserves the same punishment.

I question how useful that is. A rodef may be stopped by any means necessary (including killing him if nothing else will suffice), but only while he is clearly about to commit the murder. Once he's done killing all you can do is take him to beit din. But how often are pedophiles interrupted while about to or in the middle of committing their crimes?

Now back in the day when batei din issued death penalties and lashes, if you had proper witnesses you could at lash him, or execute him if his male victim was at least nine years old or his female victim was a close relative (leaving out details of which) and at least three years old. (Also not very useful, as how often are there witnesses?)

http://www.chabad.org/library/.....e.htm

If what they mean is call the police instead of an askon, it might be clearer to say just that.