Boozy guest - whose job is it to police?

amother

Salmon

Thu, Sep 24 2015, 5:01 pm

The guest is a lush, but his wife and kids are lovely. I hate sloppy drunks and normally won't have them, but they have no where else to go and DH invited them for the first days. I said we shouldn't have booze on the table to avoid problems. DH said it would be obvious and that he won't alter his table but that I should remove the booze when he gets sloppy. What to do? Do we lock up the booze?

amother

Salmon

Thu, Sep 24 2015, 5:21 pm

water_bear88 wrote:

I think it's wrong to put it out at all in front of an alcoholic. Why on earth can't you use grape juice?

We do use grape juice for the kids. Wine is usually put out for those that want it which are only guests. This man gets sloppy drunk, but I don't think he is an alcoholic.

water_bear88

Thu, Sep 24 2015, 5:34 pm

amother wrote:

We do use grape juice for the kids. Wine is usually put out for those that want it which are only guests. This man gets sloppy drunk, but I don't think he is an alcoholic.

You sounded quite confident in your OP that he would get drunk if alcohol was placed in front of him- I'm sorry if I misunderstood what you meant. I would still go with grape juice, just in case, but I suppose if you have to have wine you should keep it restricted to kiddush. Ask a rav if you're not sure- I can't see how the need to have wine on Yom Tov overrides any need to keep alcohol away from those who can't handle it.

amother

Smokey

Thu, Sep 24 2015, 5:36 pm

amother wrote:

OP here: I like this, but DH said it doesn't look nice.

Many people do this. It's perfectly accepted to have bottles on the table that have been opened.
To the other posters: If the man gets drunk just by drinking 2 or 3 glasses wine, it means either he's not used to drinking, or has a very high intolerance to alcohol, or both. Being an ex-alcoholic myself, I can tell you that it doesn't sound like alcoholism. Alcoholics usually handle booze pretty well. Also, as an ex-alcoholic who was always very happy to see booze on the table, having just a little, even if you used to have more, is perfectly fine. You are the host, so you decide what's on your table.

spring13

Thu, Sep 24 2015, 6:00 pm

You're entitled to not want guests to get sloppy drunk at your table: if this guy won't or can't control himself, there's nothing wrong with you controlling the situation for him.

Only having wine available during kiddush is perfectly fine, IMO. I've been at a lot of Shabbos tables of many kinds, and no, not everyone puts out unlimited amounts of booze (or any booze at all): I know some people connect it to their idea of oneg Shabbos but it's not what you'd call a requirement (beyond maybe kiddush, but since grape juice is fine for that I'm not seeing a point here). I don't understand this "it doesn't look nice" business, b/c a blechy drunk guest looks a lot less nice than a table with only food and soft drinks. I'd put my foot down on this one. Maybe serve some special nonalcoholic drink, like fresh apple cider or an interesting fruit punch, instead.

Last edited by spring13 on Thu, Sep 24 2015, 6:11 pm; edited 1 time in total

zaq

Thu, Sep 24 2015, 6:06 pm

I'm not understanding the problem. Your home is not a bar and you are under no obligation to serve alcohol. Knowing what you know about this man, it would be the height of irresponsibility, not to say masochistic stupidity, to have alcohol at the table. Since you serve grape juice for the kids anyway, just serve grape juice all around. Nobody has the "right" to be served alcohol.

Look: if you knew that you had a diabetic guest who could not resist sweets and would be sure to eat himself into a diabetic coma if you served sweets, would you serve honeyed carrots, candied pineapple, chicken glazed in apricot jam, and a chocolate bombe for dessert? I should hope not. This situation is no different.

watergirl

Thu, Sep 24 2015, 6:08 pm

We have a dry home - no alcohol ever unless its seder. Purim just a bit. No alcoholics in my family, its just not our thing. If guests need it; not one has ever mentioned. And we arent unique - the people we go to also dont put out alcohol. You wont be alone

youngishbear

Thu, Sep 24 2015, 6:26 pm

amother wrote:

Since you have firsthand experience, I defer to you.

But I would appreciate clarification:

1 - Aren't there levels of alcoholism? Ocasional alcoholics like Kiddush club (weekend) alcoholics can and do turn quite raucous.

2 - I thought there was no such thing as an ex-alcoholic. Doesn't an alcoholic who works the 12 steps of AA call him/herself an alcoholic in recovery?

amother

Salmon

Thu, Sep 24 2015, 6:28 pm

zaq wrote:

There was big articles this week that 9 out of 10 who drink to excess are not alcoholics so I rather not put that label him. I don't have a high tolerance for drinking. In your example DH wouldn't want a table with only watercress either. We would have our regular menu and a special limited menu.

If it were up to me I wouldn't have booze on the table but there are two people involved. DH wants his usual table. He is concerned that it would be obvious of our table is suddenly different and the other guests notice. His other "idea" was for me to talk to the wife and tell her to tell her DH not to drink. He also offered to uninvite the family which I am not comfortable doing because of the kids.

happybeingamom

Thu, Sep 24 2015, 6:33 pm

Wine for Kiddush and that is it!

There is no must to serve alcohol, plenty of people don't serve. I usually serve alcohol at Shabbos and Yom Tov Seudahs but if I know one of my guests will not use it appropriately I just don't serve it.

zaq

Thu, Sep 24 2015, 6:40 pm

I don't know what to tell you, OP. I'm getting the distinct impression that your DH is the real problem here: it's his home and he wants his wine*, dang it! Not willing to give up his wine for one meal for everyone else's sake.

If you don't want to ask a rav to intercede, make a deal with dh: if the guest gets drunk, be it sloppy, neat or anything in between, DH has to deal with the fallout. I'm not sure what being a "sloppy drunk" entails, but if there are body fluids involved or damage to the furnishings, DH agrees in advance that he will do all cleanup and disinfection, as well as manhandle the sot out the door.

BTW, how does your DH think seeing a sloppy drunk at the table is going to affect your dc?

*or whatever is your dh poison of choice.

Last edited by zaq on Thu, Sep 24 2015, 6:41 pm; edited 1 time in total

Notsobusy

Thu, Sep 24 2015, 6:40 pm

amother wrote:

Telling the wife not to tell is a terrible idea.

Not only will you be humiliating her, she cannot control him.

How will the guests know that this is different than the usual table?

Yup, ask your husband how he likes it when you tell him not to do something. I agree with those who say only put out a little alcohol or only for Kiddush.

zaq

Thu, Sep 24 2015, 6:47 pm

OK, I Googled "sloppy drunk" and learned that among other things, sloppy drunks lose social inhibitions, discuss inappropriate topics and use inappropriate language. Let's quit with the euphemisms: they talk dirty and they curse. Is your dh selfish, not to say irresponsible enough to be willing to risk exposing your dc to this sort of thing just so that he, sweet baby, isn't deprived of his customary bottle?

yOungM0mmy

Thu, Sep 24 2015, 7:06 pm

Seriously, no one I know gets drunk on one SHARED bottle of wine. Do regular kiddush, have one red and one white wine on the table (or just one if it's just the two couples, even if the wives don't drink it's still only 2 glasses per man). Kiddush wine is usually not 'drinking' wine so the two are not related, spirits are harder cuz less is more intoxicating, and you don't take it off in middle of the meal, but when the wine is finished, it's finished.