Boozy guest - whose job is it to police?

amother

Smokey

Thu, Sep 24 2015, 4:31 pm

youngishbear wrote:

Since you have firsthand experience, I defer to you.

But I would appreciate clarification:

1 - Aren't there levels of alcoholism? Ocasional alcoholics like Kiddush club (weekend) alcoholics can and do turn quite raucous.

2 - I thought there was no such thing as an ex-alcoholic. Doesn't an alcoholic who works the 12 steps of AA call him/herself an alcoholic in recovery?

1 - Yes, there are levels of alcoholism. Kiddush club alcoholics, as you call them, can be a real nuisance and very embarrassing. But alcoholism is usually understood as the need of alcohol on a daily basis. It doesn't mean you always get drunk. When I used to drink, I would maybe get drunk twice a year. I was perfectly able to control myself in terms of getting drunk.

2 - I stopped drinking years ago. On Shabbos and YT I now usually drink a bit of wine, but that's it. I never went to AA, nor did I go to some doctor or therapist. Realizing I was just destroying my health drinking and not solving anything, with Hashem's help, I gradually stopped drinking. It wasn't easy.

spring13

Thu, Sep 24 2015, 5:29 pm

Mimisinger wrote:

Think about his wife and kids. Don't you think they're embarrassed every time the man gets drunk?

This. Your DH is worried that he'll embarrass someone (himself? the drinker?) by not having booze on the table. Frankly, I'd be a lot more worried that everyone else at the meal will be embarrassed in one way or another - because the guy's drunken behavior makes them uncomfortable. I hate it when my FIL makes really dirty jokes, and he already does that sober. If alcohol made the problem appear or get worse, you better believe I wouldn't be allowing it at the table.

This is not a normal hosting situation, so DH's normal expectations DON'T APPLY.

amother

Salmon

Thu, Sep 24 2015, 6:01 pm

zaq wrote:

I don't know what to tell you, OP. I'm getting the distinct impression that your DH is the real problem here: it's his home and he wants his wine*, dang it! Not willing to give up his wine for one meal for everyone else's sake.

If you don't want to ask a rav to intercede, make a deal with dh: if the guest gets drunk, be it sloppy, neat or anything in between, DH has to deal with the fallout. I'm not sure what being a "sloppy drunk" entails, but if there are body fluids involved or damage to the furnishings, DH agrees in advance that he will do all cleanup and disinfection, as well as manhandle the sot out the door.

BTW, how does your DH think seeing a sloppy drunk at the table is going to affect your dc?

*or whatever is your dh poison of choice.

I think you are getting it except it is for 4 meals. The guest gets obnoxious when drunk and his wife and kids are there. DH is willing to have me remove the alcohol after one l'chiam before he can get drunk. He said he will back me up and take all the heat. I am thinking of setting out shot glasses for the men to limit the size of the drink. I think this might work for the first meal. I was thinking of watering the booze, but DH said no. I am out of ideas.

We expect other guests and a l'chiam is customary. They offer it to DH when we go there. You make great points and I totally agree with you.

amother

Smokey

Thu, Sep 24 2015, 6:09 pm

amother wrote:

There is something I don't get here. Why would your dh back you up and get all the heat? What do you mean? Is your guest demanding booze? If so, this is so rude!
Watering booze is a bad idea. It doesn't fool anyone, unless you are not used to alcohol, meaning you can't make the difference, and a bit tipsy.
One l'chaim then no booze sounds like a good idea.

spring13

Thu, Sep 24 2015, 6:17 pm

amother wrote:

1 l'chaim per meal, in shot glasses, with the bottle removed immediately after, is manageable. Under the circumstances, there's no reason not to do it for all 4 meals.

amother

Salmon

Thu, Sep 24 2015, 6:30 pm

amother wrote:

The guests want the "good" stuff. They have gone and got bottles from the cabinet without permission and "suggested" they try it. I speak to DH after. This time I want to set the ground rules ahead of time.

zaq

Thu, Sep 24 2015, 6:56 pm

Your guests are unspeakable. I hope they are not family but I suspect they are. My condolences. I suggest you lay in a supply of nearly-empty bottles and lock them and the full bottles in a cabinet or trunk or something in your bedroom. Empty out the drinks cabinet and put sefarim or photo albums in it instead. Or maybe, give them the shock of their lives and put a TV in there! Put one nearly-empty bottle on the table each meal. Have each bottle contain just enough for one round of lechaims. next meal, bring out another nearly-empty bottle. Make sure you do this when your guests are not around, otherwise you;ll have them invading your bedroom in search of.

Just because they offer you booze when you visit them doesn't mean you are obligated to offer them booze when they visit you. Your house, your customs, your rules. They don't like it, they don't have to come. As for your other guests, if they ask why you're being so stingy with the booze, prepare your response in advance. Depending on the number of people and how well they know your brother-in-law or whoever he is, you can say that someone at the table is not allowed more than one drink for health reasons, but finds it hard to say no if the stuff is right there on the table. So in fairness to him or her, you are removing temptation. Lifnei iver lo titen michshol and all that.

What do you care if you look stingy? Let's see: you can risk looking stingy to unspeakably rude guests whose opinion of you should count for nothing, given their own lack of couth, or...you can have a disgusting offensive unpredictable souse at your YT table saying who knows what in front of you and your dc. Hmm...think...think...

mummiedearest

Thu, Sep 24 2015, 7:01 pm

zaq wrote:

I agree, these guests sound rude. I suggest the prepared response be "we used up the alcohol on rosh hashanah and forgot to restock. sorry!" simple and easy to stick to. and I'd stick with grape juice for kiddush while these guests are over.

spring13

Thu, Sep 24 2015, 7:05 pm

amother wrote:

"Sorry, we finished a couple of bottles over R"H and didn't have a chance to replenish the stocks. More kugel?"

I'd say their actual bad manners more than justify your not-really-bad-at-all manners.

cfriedman2

Thu, Sep 24 2015, 10:17 pm

amother wrote:

Sorry to be blunt but ur not an ex alcoholic. Ur someone who has gotten drunk a few times and realized it wasn't healthy for u and stopped on ur own. A true alcoholic can't just stop on his own bc he wants to.

My friend is currently married to an alcoholic and for her sake I ask that u put away the alcohol. The amount of alcohol that's considered normal to consume these days is obscene. If ur other guests can't handle it they can go elsewhere. If ur husband desires it so much he can take w drink in the kitchen before this man comes.

amother

Dodgerblue

Thu, Sep 24 2015, 10:27 pm

amother wrote:

I understood addiction (any type) to be the use of, or rather the dependence on, a substance to escape reality and its uncomfortable emotions.

It does not depend only on frequency, and daily drinking is not a necessary criterion for diagnosis. Neither does diagnosis depend on how well one holds his liquor.

From wikipedia:
In a medical context alcoholism is said to exist when two or more of the following is present: a person drinks large amounts over a long time period, has difficulty cutting down, acquiring and drinking alcohol takes up a great deal of time, alcohol is strongly desired, usage results in not fulfilling responsibilities, usage results in social problems, usage results in health problems, usage results in risky situations, withdrawal occurs when stopping, and alcohol tolerance has occurred with use.

The bolded apply to OP's guest.

From the little you've shared it's not clear that you were an alcoholic. Nor is it necessarily true that your definition is the clinically accepted one.

OP's rude guest should not be drinking in their home.

amother

Salmon

Fri, Sep 25 2015, 9:38 am

zaq wrote:

LOL You are hysterical especially with the TV comment. If you only knew how right you are. I am not worried about being stingy but I am worried the family will think we dislike them. The wife is sensitive that we should like her DH. They know how we entertain so it does send a clear message by stopping the booze after one. I am not sure if they can figure out why rather than get hurt.

amother

Dodgerblue

Fri, Sep 25 2015, 9:53 am

amother wrote:

It sounds like you would benefit from al-anon.

One major concept: set boundaries to protect yourself so you can have an oneg yomtov. You would live so much freer if you can let go of all the pressure to keep up appearances and meet people's expectations.

You know, and they know that you know, what happens to this family member when he drinks. This is a charade either way. If you put drinks out as usual so as not to insult them, you need to pretend to not mind his outrageous behavior. Or you can bend over backwards coming up with ideas to limit alcohol in a way that they shouldn't suspect you consider his inebriated behavior unpleasant. All because his wife is embarrassed by him and therefore needs to be reassured that he is not as awful (when he is drunk) as she knows him to be. Can anyone spell denial?

Time for all of you to wake up and get the codependents and the alcoholic the help they need. Since that is highly unlikely, at least stop enabling and just do what you need to so yomtov is not defiled, and let go of the results.

SRS

Fri, Sep 25 2015, 10:06 am

I am guessing these guests for 4 meals are family. I'm also guessing your husband REALLY desires alcohol himself because it is so obvious that when you have this type of guest over you lock it all up.

So my advice is that you tell these out of town family guests in advance that you have re-evaluated alcohol in your own home and if they threaten you, kick them to the curb. The enabling has gone on long enough.