Dh wants me to stop shaving

out-of-towner

Sun, Sep 27 2015, 12:15 am

5mom wrote:

It's still fair to point out that someone started the practice and that Jews haven't done this forever. It's also fair in some cases to point out that something may have started out for reasons that are not about religion.

Imagine that in Yeuhupitz, the mayor's brother had a monopoly on the sale of buttons. Starting in 1853, he sold only bright blue buttons, because he had a surplus. So the Jews of Yeuhupitz wore only bright blue buttons on their shirts. Thus was born a mesorah.

Now, must the descendants of the Yehupitzers forever wear bright blue buttons in order to be good Jews? You could argue that bright blue buttons mark their dedication to the memory of their fathers. But to say that the buttons are a kiyum in techeiles or something like that, and therefore the best practice for a frum Jew, that's pretty shaky.

This is true, but I would like to point out that there are Halachic and Kabbalistic reasons for some parts of the Levush of Chassidim. It may not be Moshe M'Sinai, but there are legitimate reasons.

DrMom

Sun, Sep 27 2015, 1:24 am

5mom wrote:

In that case, why didn't Rabbi Shimon bar Yochai dress like a Ukrainian nobleman?

Of course, someone will answer with:

"My uncle, a very chashuv rabbi, studied with a rav who was the great-great-great.... great-grandson of Rabbi Shimon bar Yochai, who claims that Rabbi Shimon bar Yochai actually wore chassidishe levush at home, but didn't want to embarrass his followers, most of whom could not afford fur hats, so in front of his students, he wore simple linen tunics.

Nowadays, baruch hashem, we can afford these clothes, so we are free to wear the levush that Rabbi Shimon bar Yochai deemed truly appropriate.

In fact, the Ukranian czar was once helped by young kabbalist who saved his empire with his extraordinary wisdom, and ever since then, he ordered all Ukranian nobles to wear this kabbalistic levush. So you see, the Ukranians actualy modeled their levush after that of the great kabbalists."

gp2.0

Sun, Sep 27 2015, 1:27 am

Happy18 wrote:

http://www.britannica.com/topic/droit-du-seigneur

Droit du seigneur, (French: “right of the lord”), a feudal right said to have existed in medieval Europe giving the lord to whom it belonged the right to sleep the first night with the bride of any one of his vassals. The custom is paralleled in various primitive societies, but the evidence of its existence in Europe is all indirect, involving records of redemption dues paid by the vassal to avoid enforcement of some lordly rights. Many intellectual investigations have been devoted to the problem. A considerable number of feudal rights were related to the vassal’s marriage, particularly the lord’s right to select a bride for his vassal, but these were almost invariably redeemed by a money payment, or “avail”; and it seems likely that the droit du seigneur amounted, in effect, only to another tax of this sort.

That's what I said. There is no proof of this ever actually happening.

Furthermore (broken record alert) a rapist DOES NOT CARE if a woman has hair or not. Rape is not about attraction. Rape is about control.

imasoftov

Sun, Sep 27 2015, 1:47 am

out-of-towner wrote:

This is true, but I would like to point out that there are Halachic and Kabbalistic reasons for some parts of the Levush of Chassidim. It may not be Moshe M'Sinai, but there are legitimate reasons.

It's hard to tell the difference between reasons and post-facto explanations unless you find the document where the chassidim decided to change their clothes and gave that reason. And if you find something in the name of one rebbe but it was only recorded a generation later ...

It's like how we can guess at the reason Ashkenazim have a minhag not to eat kitniot, but they're only guesses, because the minhag is older than the explanations.

I find it ironic that some of the original controversy surrounding chassidim were about things that they changed themselves, and these changes have since become immutable. I imagine that a few decades after Avraham left Ur, you could buy a statue of someone smashing idols in whoever took over Terach's business and they explained that this was a really powerful idol smiting the lesser ones.

I don't remember which rebbe it was who, when criticized for not following his father's practices, insisted that he was exactly following in his father's path, just as his father did things differently from his father, so did the son.

Butterfly

Sun, Sep 27 2015, 1:49 am

In regard to some of the discussions and controversies about the stemming of 'minhagim' I clarified about it (with the help of my DH who is an esteemed Talmud Chachum) in the following link;
http://www.imamother.com/forum.....09132

Generations ago when the the Rabbanim צדיקי הדור felt a need to implement a new Minhag/rule they would gather together the Rabbanim who were nominated as Cheif Rabbi's of the cities or states in that country, and arrange an אסיפה where they would discuss whatever issues were of concern at the time.. They would also set up a בית דין to finalize the ruling/s.

It wasn't so simple. The Rabbanim were deeply immersed in immense scholarly research for days and sometimes even weeks during those meetings as they were seeking for practical solutions to keep the Dor stabilized.

In conclusion of the meetings the "Bais Din" would endorse the final ruling and thus a new MINHAG was created!!
From there-on the new MINHAG was to be observed by everyone of those communities and of their generations to follow as if it were a DIN.
If the Minhag wasn't observed the Bais Din had the right to place them in חרם!

Why is MINHAG considered a DIN??
The Gemara states that whatever rulings the חז"ל apply are actually those of "TORAS MOSHE". Therefore a Minhag is considered a Din.

We do not have the ability to nullify a Minhag without the endorsement of a Bais Din. Only a Bais Din can create or nullify a MINHAG...
Unfortunately those Bais Din's don't exist nowadays anymore, therefore the Minhagim are still as valid as they were when they were created.

If one has an issue with a certain Minhag it should be discussed with a prominent Rav. Only He has the ability (in today's times) to issue a valid heter...

imasoftov

Sun, Sep 27 2015, 1:54 am

Butterfly wrote:

0) "The topic or post you requested does not exist"
1) how many generations ago was this?
1a) how can we tell if a minhag is newer or older?
2) do we have the minutes of these meetings? or even the proclamation issued at the end?
3) which beit din instituted shlissel challah?

Last edited by imasoftov on Sun, Sep 27 2015, 2:02 am; edited 1 time in total

imasoftov

Sun, Sep 27 2015, 2:01 am

gp2.0 wrote:

Suggestion for a PhD - give a survey to all chassiduts and see if there's a correlation between older views of the nature of the crime of rape and shaving the head. Mention me in the acknowledgements as "anonymous internet commenter".

Butterfly

Sun, Sep 27 2015, 2:25 am

imasoftov wrote:

1) how many generations ago was this?
1a) how can we tell if a minhag is newer or older?
2) do we have the minutes of these meetings? or even the proclamation issued at the end?
3) which beit din instituted shlissel challah?

I don't know how many generations ago those Bais Din's existed but those events actually took place.

Quite recently a there was clip or photo that was discovered of the Chafetz Chaim. In that photo he was on his way to an Asifa / gathering in a city where many Chief Rabbi's of other cities (countries?)gathered together and joined at that particular asifa.

In todays generation, there are also occasional asifas taking place among the most prominent Rabbanim of this generation and rulings are being established; I.e. the issur of unfiltered internet, smartphones... but there is no "Bais Din" and therefore those issurim cannot be considered as minhagim /dinim as was generations ago when Bais Din existed.

About the shlissel challah minhag I'm not familiar with it's stem but I doubt there was an asifa nor a Bais Din ruling on this one... lol.

ETA; The only time a minhag becomes a din according to the chazal is if the rulings were finalized and endorsed/signed by Bais Din.

Last edited by Butterfly on Sun, Sep 27 2015, 7:53 am; edited 2 times in total

Iymnok

Sun, Sep 27 2015, 2:27 am

Happy18 wrote:

Except Jews weren't vassals. They had a different status. They could marry whom they wanted, move to a different principality... They had to pay insanely high taxes and rent though, making them indebted to the feudal lords.
In some situations Jews had more freedom than the Gentiles- the serfs.

The shaving more likely came about when kisui tosh started to weaken. It was very uncommon in Europe before the war and nearly unheard of in the us until a decade after. If a woman is embarrassed to uncover, she'll find a way to make herself presentable, I.e. cover.
From my understanding there are many takanos that the Satmar Rav made when he came to the US. Yiddishkeit was in such disarray that he had to enact severe measures.
I personally don't see the need for such severity today. But it is now "Mesorah".

Many minhagim came about to combat the haskalah.

Butterfly

Sun, Sep 27 2015, 2:58 am

imasoftov wrote:

I'd assume that there are sefarim that provide detailed information including dates/yrs / of asifa events / proclamations, etc etc.
Will inquire after Yom Tov imy'H.

amother

Aubergine

Sun, Sep 27 2015, 3:02 am

Iymnok wrote:

I don't believe that shaving was a takanah instituted by the satmer rebbe. If that was the case, then why would belzers, skverers, skuleners, sanzers and any other chasidim shave?

My great great grandmother and great grandmother shaved (before the war). My grandmother did not shave when she got married (in america- first generation after the war ).She started shaving later on in her life.

Butterfly

Sun, Sep 27 2015, 3:12 am

amother wrote:

I couldn't agree more.
Add Klauenburg, Tzelim, and Pupa to the list...
My grandmothers from many generations back all shaved as well ...

Maya

Sun, Sep 27 2015, 8:08 am

Butterfly wrote:

I couldn't agree more.
Add Klauenburg, Tzelim, and Pupa to the list...
My grandmothers from many generations back all shaved as well ...

It's an uncontested fact that Satmar rebbe was seen as the "leader" of most Chassidish rebbes in Brooklyn, and the others all institutes rules based on what the Satmar rebbe said. Examples are shaving, no driving, wearing seamed tights (mostly Pupa took that one), etc.