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What is the Halachah for repaying for stolen goods



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amother
Ginger


 

Post Sat, Sep 26 2015, 10:00 pm
anon because I am beyond embarrassed to ask this question. I'm also too embarrass to ask a rav. So maybe someone knows the answer...
When I was in high school, I stole a lot of items (some shoplifting, as well as money from friends).
What is the Halachah in terms of repaying what I stole? Is there a difference between individuals and a store, or between Jews and non Jews? Does it matter what my age was (I.e. Under 18)?
Thanks.
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animeme




 
 
    
 

Post Sat, Sep 26 2015, 10:04 pm
Can you set up a Gmail account and email "ask the rabbi" at aish, or another rav like Rav Dovid Goldwasser who has "reach the rav"?
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amother
Ginger


 

Post Sat, Sep 26 2015, 10:15 pm
animeme wrote:
Can you set up a Gmail account and email "ask the rabbi" at aish, or another rav like Rav Dovid Goldwasser who has "reach the rav"?


I guess so but this was easier. If I don't get an answer here I'll have to do that.
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trixx




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Sep 27 2015, 2:27 am
it sounds like you need a real halachic answer though - the point of daas torah is for them to define your obligations. so if you get a psak from a rav that you only have to do xyz, that's all you need to do. anything else that people might tell you here (write letters, pay back, ask forgiveness) may not really cover all your bases.
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chani8




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Sep 27 2015, 3:22 am
amother wrote:
anon because I am beyond embarrassed to ask this question. I'm also too embarrass to ask a rav. So maybe someone knows the answer...
When I was in high school, I stole a lot of items (some shoplifting, as well as money from friends).
What is the Halachah in terms of repaying what I stole? Is there a difference between individuals and a store, or between Jews and non Jews? Does it matter what my age was (I.e. Under 18)?
Thanks.


From big chain stores, nothing you can do. A small family store, you should repay. From friends, you need to repay.

If you cannot find these people, then you should give tzeddaka in the amount you owe, because giving to the 'public' is a tikun for stealing.
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notshanarishona




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Sep 27 2015, 4:32 am
Halachically, it matters once you are over 12 , 18 is not relevant.
If you know who you stole from you should repay them in some way.
If it was too many people and / or you don't know who they are, then giving tzedakah is normally a way of doing teshuva.
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amother
Navy


 

Post Sun, Sep 27 2015, 8:46 am
chani8 wrote:
From big chain stores, nothing you can do. A small family store, you should repay. From friends, you need to repay.

If you cannot find these people, then you should give tzeddaka in the amount you owe, because giving to the 'public' is a tikun for stealing.


What is the difference between a chain store and a small store?

I know many people rationalize stealing from government and large corporations because you are not hurting an easily seen individual.

Not that I am condoning theft but to me the circumstances are more important than who you steal from. If someone steals a loaf of bread because they have no food it is still theft but more understandable.

Regarding OP's thefts, things one does as a teenager, whether one is 11 or 16 are different to me because the adolescent brain is not fully developed and even the best teenagers do stupid impulsive things. My cousin and I stole a hat from Bloomingdales. We had charge cards and I am sure my mother would have let me keep the hat but for whatever reason, we decided it made more "sense" to not pay for it. We were very bad thieves and didn't make it off the floor before the detective had us open our purse. It is one of my secrets because she just let us go with a stern warning. For better or worse, Bloomingdales was not going to arrest two obviously non criminal schoolgirls who had charge cards for the store.

So yes consult anonymously but also forgive yourself because you are certainly not the person you were.
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chani8




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Sep 27 2015, 10:35 am
amother wrote:
What is the difference between a chain store and a small store?

I know many people rationalize stealing from government and large corporations because you are not hurting an easily seen individual.

Not that I am condoning theft but to me the circumstances are more important than who you steal from. If someone steals a loaf of bread because they have no food it is still theft but more understandable.

Regarding OP's thefts, things one does as a teenager, whether one is 11 or 16 are different to me because the adolescent brain is not fully developed and even the best teenagers do stupid impulsive things. My cousin and I stole a hat from Bloomingdales. We had charge cards and I am sure my mother would have let me keep the hat but for whatever reason, we decided it made more "sense" to not pay for it. We were very bad thieves and didn't make it off the floor before the detective had us open our purse. It is one of my secrets because she just let us go with a stern warning. For better or worse, Bloomingdales was not going to arrest two obviously non criminal schoolgirls who had charge cards for the store.

So yes consult anonymously but also forgive yourself because you are certainly not the person you were.


There is no rationalizing about stealing, ever. It's one of the Top Ten.

What I meant was, fixing one's theft is harder to do with a govt/corp. A rav is likely to posken, give tzeddaka instead.
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amother
Navy


 

Post Sun, Sep 27 2015, 10:42 am
chani8 wrote:
There is no rationalizing about stealing, ever. It's one of the Top Ten.

What I meant was, fixing one's theft is harder to do with a govt/corp. A rav is likely to posken, give tzeddaka instead.


Ok. I understand and agree. The act is equally wrong but restitution is more easily done woth a small store because it is a face to face with an individual rather than somewhat symbolic with a large store.
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SRS




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Sep 27 2015, 10:55 am
Do you have an inventory of what your stole? The halacha I believe is double, but I bet your friends would be thrilled to get back whatever your stole. I had a study partner and friend steal from me and if I got back whatever sum it was, I'd be thrilled out of my mind. I wasn't one of those kids with cash to burn growing up, so what she took really stung.

If you have your own children, you could try and return inventory of close value to a store just passing it off as something you discovered wasn't charged even if you need to buy the inventory at Safeway and return it to CVS, so the money comes out of your pocket and gets processed at some level back into the store that you lifted from. Stores can process inventory without a receipt, but don't know much about what to do with money and you place the cashier in a position to steal themselves. You can run my idea by a Rav.
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LittleDucky




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Sep 27 2015, 12:05 pm
SRS,
I once tried to go return something to CVS that they didn't charge me for. I was buying multiples of an item and they missed one. Only had a chance to return it the next day. Well, I was told that they couldn't process it since things go into the system every night as a loss. I spoke to a manager about it too.... Asked a shaila and was told "you tried and try to check before you leave that store if they have issues often".

And be careful if you buy from one store to return to another- each store has special packaging on certain items. Like diapers- different amounts, shape of box etc. I learned about this when trying to make a return! Ends up I bought it at target and not CVS (or vice versa) and they knew because of the UPC...
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SRS




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Sep 27 2015, 1:44 pm
Interesting Little Ducky.
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imasoftov




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Sep 28 2015, 8:11 pm
SRS wrote:
The halacha I believe is double

When batei din had the authority to impose fines (such as double payment for theft) it was only if the thief was convicted due to witness testimony. A thief who admitted only had to pay once.

Source: Rambam Hilchot Geneva 1:5
http://www.chabad.org/library/.....e.htm
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zaq




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Sep 30 2015, 2:17 am
chani8 wrote:
There is no rationalizing about stealing, ever. It's one of the Top Ten.

.


Actually, the "theft" in the Top Ten refers to theft of a person aka kidnapping. Not to trivialize theft of property, but that's not part of the Decalogue.

People have, btw, sent checks to corporations as restitution for youthful shoplifting. People have also sent checks to government entities as restitution for unpaid taxes and the like. How these are handled by the accounting departments I couldn't begin to guess, but the checks do clear.
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