"tuition crisis" and "struggling" financially

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purplepear

Wed, Oct 21 2015, 8:09 pm

So I'm realizing that a lot of people just talk like they are really tight for money when in reality they are just way off base in terms of what they consider themselves "entitled" to. How can the same people who always talk as if their so tight and go on complaining about things like tuition payments be constantly going on expensive vacations, doing all kinds of home renovations, etc.. I really resent that.

It's really sad if people don't recognize the difference between actual needs and luxuries.. and not right to talk that way when there are others who really are struggling.

Fox

Thu, Oct 22 2015, 2:41 pm

Because, for better or worse, everything is relative.

I recently saw a wallpaper on one of the social networking sites that said, "If you have a refrigerator with some food in it; a closet in which to store clothes; and a few dollars in your purse, you are wealthier than 75 percent of the world."

Now, one has to take these memes with a grain of salt, so I don't know if that's statistically true or not. But compared to the majority of people in the world, everyone on this site is wealthy in the extreme.

But we tend not to compare ourselves to everyone in the world.

Nor do we compare ourselves to the past.

Those of us on Imamother live like the aristocracy of old. Our lives are longer, safer, more convenient, healthier, and just plain less icky than life in a palace two centuries ago.

Wealth is a much tougher nisoyon than poverty, and most of us are having trouble passing it.

chaiz

Thu, Oct 22 2015, 2:48 pm

Fox wrote:

Wealth is a much tougher nisoyon than poverty, and most of us are having trouble passing it.

Not sure you can say with any definitiveness that wealth is a tougher nisayon than poverty. The idealization and romanticizing of poverty in the frum world is really unhealthy and leads to not good outcomes.

Fox

Thu, Oct 22 2015, 5:29 pm

chaiz wrote:

I'm not saying that poverty is more pleasant -- just that it's easier to pass the test.

When you're poor, there are all kinds of problems, but you're less likely to become spoiled, use money carelessly, or become arrogant about your role.

But even a small increase in wealth changes your thinking.

For example, after 12 years or so, my faux-leather living room furniture is ready to go to its final reward. Our financial situation has improved a bit since we last made that kind of purchase, and when I was recently looking online, I found myself thinking, "Hmm, maybe I should only consider real leather."

Now, when I bought that furniture years ago, I could barely, barely afford it. Buying real leather furniture wasn't any more realistic than buying a solid-gold bathtub.

Moreover, the furniture more than met my expectations for durability, etc.

So why was I thinking "real leather" all of a sudden?

Because I could.

Oh, I had a million reasons why it might be better. It might wear better; it might look more attractive; I don't want others to judge me negatively . . .

Fortunately, I stopped myself.

I'm not criticizing anyone who insists on real leather over fake leather. Remember, I'm the lady who wears a Paula Young shaitel while insisting on sterling silver flatware. We're all entitled to spend some money on what we feel is important.

But real leather wasn't truly important to me. I was considering it simply because I could.

And that's why the nisoyon of wealth is so tough. When you don't have money, you don't have many choices. When you have money, you have plenty of choices, making it tougher to make the right ones.

Maya

Thu, Oct 22 2015, 6:07 pm

What kind of nisayon do you think you passed by not buying a leather couch if you have the means to? Why is it a wrong choice to spend a few dollars more if you can? We're not talking outrageous luxury and ostentation.

I don't understand this mindset at all.

MitzadSheini

Thu, Oct 22 2015, 7:59 pm

The issue is in the definition of nisayon. When people say the nisayon of wealth is greater than that of poverty, it definitely doesn't mean it is more uncomfortable to be rich than poor. You are commanded to serve Hashem (in Shema) "bchol moedecha"... Which means with all your money. It means ALL. If you have lots of money, it's much harder to know how much you are required to give away, how much to spend on mitzvahs, and how much to spend on luxuries so you won't be held accountable for not enjoying the things that HKBH placed in the world for our enjoyment.

That's why the test is harder to pass. And you don't know if you've passed till 120.

seeker

Thu, Oct 22 2015, 8:02 pm

Maya wrote:

You're taking it out of context. She didn't say it's wrong to buy a leather couch. She was using this experience to share her insight that having more gave her access to more choices without even being conscious of them.

I don't know if I agree with the conclusion that wealth is more difficult than poverty (you still have choices in poverty - e.g. whether to be bitter at your husband/boss/parents/whatever for not providing your needs vs realizing it is from Hashem, and this is much harder than it sounds because it always LOOKS like it's someone's fault. Or the choice of whether to be generous when doing so means you will really be giving up something real to you, not like the "haves" who can give and replace.) But I still understand this insight and its own validity without the relativity judgment.

Maya

Thu, Oct 22 2015, 8:07 pm

seeker wrote:

I want to understand why having more choices is considered a nisayon, and one is considered as having "passed" a test if they choose not to spend a little bit more money on everyday items, if they could.

Volunteer

Thu, Oct 22 2015, 9:29 pm

Poverty and wealth are equal tests, all things considered. Hashem chooses which one we gave and when based on where we are at the time. Poor people can be just as materialistic as rich people, even more so. Poverty sometimes causes people to imagine that money and possessions could solve all problems. If it's the one thing you lack, you tend to focus on it more. Materialism is an attitude, irrespective of whether one has the means to fulfill all those desires.

MiracleMama

Thu, Oct 22 2015, 9:37 pm

OP, I am very aggravated by this too. I know people who constantly eat out, go on vacation, drive nice cars, have the fanciest baby stroller, housekeepers, etc. etc. But when it comes to tuition they gripe and gripe and cry for tuition breaks. Someone will come along and say to give them benefit of doubt.... maybe they were gifted the stroller, used points to buy airline tickets, they won a GC for dinner in a raffle, whatever. Perhaps in some cases, but I know in most it's not the case. They are not shy to talk about their finances. They find the money for all this. But teachers they don't want to pay. Tuition is somehow outrageous. And they are given the tuition breaks. And it really bothers me because if they would just be more responsible and pay for their kids' education then people who are actually poor, people who don't have maids and bugaboos and spend a month on vacation overseas, might actually be able to get more tuition breaks... or maybe teachers could actually get paid on time in all the schools.

sneakermom

Thu, Oct 22 2015, 9:39 pm

In response to Fox:

I prefer to see life circumstances as opportunities to make choices.

A chance to do good.

When finances were very tight the first decade of my marriage it presented me with the choice to see the silver lining, to have faith that Hashem is caring for our needs and the skill to make do with little. Even to be humbled by it.

At this point in my life when BH my husband and I moved up in our careers and we are struggling less. It's so much fun be able to give tzeddaka, to buy my kids nice winter coats, and a nice Shabbos treat every week. (To get if they do their chores Smile

)

I keep thinking of the passuk, Tov lehodos lashem...l'hagid baboker chassdecha, v'emunascha baleylos.

To have faith in the night and sing Hashem's praise in the morning.

Money is a commodity. A means to be used to bring light in the world. We don't have to be withholding about it perse. That's not a mitzva in of itself.

But we should use it to build. Either to build our own mikdash me'at or to help someone else with whatever their needs may be.

PinkFridge

Fri, Oct 23 2015, 9:46 am

Fox wrote:

But now there's so much more good stuff on Craig's list etc., out there. Go for it!

Dr. Twerski has often said that all of us live so much better than just over a century ago - running water, air and heat, refrigeration and other appliances, antibiotics, vaccinations, etc.

PinkFridge

Fri, Oct 23 2015, 9:49 am

Maya wrote:

Rabbi Frand tells the story of when they got a new refrigerator, which included a free ice maker. Once they got it, he realized that this was setting the bar - now that his children were growing up with an ice maker, they would consider this higher standard the norm. (Must have been a refrigerator ago, as his kids are grown up now.)

I'm not saying this is Fox's thinking, but it is something people factor in when considering upgrades.

Fox

Fri, Oct 23 2015, 1:40 pm

This is not a thread bashing people who buy leather couches or nice things. Don't even go there. Nor is it about where and how to purchase furniture.

The bottom line is that at 120, Hashem will judge whether we used our resources appropriately. Every dollar or shekl we spend will be accounted for.

So compare it to an academic test. If you take a test with 100 items, you can get 10 wrong and still get 90 percent. If you take a test with 10 items, you can only get one wrong in order to get 90 percent.

It would seem, therefore, that a test of 100 items is easier -- after all, you can miss more questions and still come out with a good score.

But that hides a problem: the more test items there are, the more you're likely to miss questions because of sheer human error -- misreading the question; skipping the question; filling in the wrong bubble on the answer sheet; sheer fatigue.

Poverty presents people with a limited number of big problems, but wealth presents people with constant decisions, each of which they'll be held accountable for.

My DH once met an Israeli silver artisan who made high-end Judaica. He had visited Chicago not long before and was quite chatty about his clientele. He mentioned one well-known family that had purchased a $30K seder plate and another (far wealthier, btw) where the husband had vetoed a similar purchase.

Now, it would be easy to say, "A $30K seder plate?" and start making a list of all the vital things that money could be used for. It would be easy to laud the family that declined to spend that kind of money on such a purchase.

But is that correct? It's not so easy.

If we want museum-quality, beautiful Judaica that will be admired by future generations, somebody has to pay for it. And it's probably not going to be you or me. If we want a vibrant community of Torah-inspired artists, somebody has to pay. If we want artists to create seder plate designs that can be adapted for $3K seder plates, $300 seder plates, and $30 seder plates . . . well, those people are not going to work for minimum wage.

Who was right? Who was wrong?

Perhaps both families were right and both will be rewarded. Perhaps the family that paid $30K for the seder plate will be punished in Shemayim because they should have invested it in a local Jewish business. Or perhaps the family that declined will be punished because they were given massive wealth yet declined to spend any of it to promote Torah-inspired art.

So I'm not in a position in which a $30K seder plate is a decision. It's not a decision -- it's a joke!

But I *am* in a position to decide whether I want to account for a real leather couch to Hashem at 120. Would it increase my avodas Hashem? Would it honor Hashem and the Torah? Would it demonstrate that Hashem blesses those who honor His Torah? Perhaps purchasing a nice leather couch from a small Jewish business and waiting weeks for delivery would result in a greater reward than buying a cheaper alternative from somewhere else that could be delivered tomorrow . . .

It's entirely possible that Hashem would bless me for buying a real leather couch and punish me for being a cheapskate. Or perhaps, for those of you who have a sense of humor about these things, He's saying, "Enough already, Fox! I'll bless you just for getting those broken-down couches out of your living room!"

That's why wealth is more "difficult" than poverty. The more wealth you have, the more constant the stream of decisions, like a never-ending multiple choice test in which the number possible answers for each test item grows larger and larger with each answer being examined in Shemayim.

sneakermom

Fri, Oct 23 2015, 2:29 pm

Fox that was a beautifully balanced explanation that gives credence to both sides.

I guess for me it doesn't work imagining G-d as someone chasing me with a measuring stick and punishing me for every missing inch.

What helps me is understanding it from the perspective of always trying to make a dwelling place for Hashem on this earth. Does this purchase add to the world in some way or does it take away? Does it build or destroy? Does it bring Hashem closer (by being aligned with his will) or is it just self serving and selfish?

PinkFridge

Fri, Oct 23 2015, 3:29 pm

Fox, your 30K seder plate reminds me of the rich man who was eating his meager meal of black bread and onions and was told off by a meshulach for doing so. Because if he ate according to his means then when a hungry person came he would give him a decent meal (of course not the stuffed goose he was eating). But if this sufficed for him, then he wouldn't treat the poor man well at all.

I appreciate this, and it's helped me not judge wealthy people. Along with the fact that I know wealthy people who are living well below their means, even if that's still way above mine.

Still though, I hope that should I be tested with the nisayon of wealth, I would not be one of those who would have to live up to certain standards. And with the nisayon, and the noblesse oblige, comes the challenge of still keeping it real for the kids.

Raisin

Sat, Oct 24 2015, 6:57 pm

as long as the person buying the seder plate was paying full tuition, paying his workers on time, giving tzedaka, etc, who cares what he chooses to spend his extra cash on?

The issue is not (extremely) wealthy people, it is well off people who just don't have quite enough income to pay full tuition and live in the lifestyle they would like to.

purplepear

Sun, Oct 25 2015, 8:56 pm

The issue is not (extremely) wealthy people, it is well off people who just don't have quite enough income to pay full tuition and live in the lifestyle they would like to.

Yes, I think that is the point. We have a high standard of living beyond our means for many and don't even realize it. It's like if we aren't meeting that standard that means we are struggling financially.

sourstix

Sun, Oct 25 2015, 9:53 pm

oh I would love to mention someone I know that doesnt have but must live the lifestyle of the rich. I feel sorry for her. she cant be honest and say I dont have so I cant spend. I dont know all I know is that if I dont have I dont spend and I dont ask anyoen for handouts. noone owes me anything. bh I dont have the nisayone of wealth like everyone here is talking about. but I do agree we have way more then a generations before us. very good perspective. thanks for the chizuk. oh the nisayone of riches I think is harder then being poor. noone gets upset with poor people but the rich gets criticized whatever they do.

Fox

Mon, Oct 26 2015, 1:56 pm

Raisin wrote:

As my DH likes to say, "You can spend your own money on whatever you like. Just as soon as you have your own money."

If we honestly believe that Hashem provides for us, we don't have our "own" money.

It's not a matter of just saying, "Live as cheaply as possible" or "Hey, you earned it -- live large!" It's about developing a constant internal sense that we are custodians of Hashem's resources.

The laws of loshen hora can't be dumbed down to "don't say anythng bad about anyone ever." There are times when you *must* say something negative about someone.

The same is true about handling wealth -- even the level of "wealth" that we consider "average." The correct halachos and hashkafos *aren't* "live as cheaply as possible." But you have to learn and have guidance in knowing when to spend and when not to spend.

You can imagine how popular *that* topic is!

However, the kind of people the OP is describing, in my experience, are simply too shallow to understand or appreciate how comparatively wealthy they are. They don't reflect on how people live elsewhere in the world, and they've never read a book about history, Jewish or otherwise.

Since their lives are so comparatively easy, they apply their "stiff neckedness" not to overcoming poverty and oppression, but to complaining about tuition and arguing with retailers.

Like annoying relatives, the best thing you can do is change the subject when necessary and avoid them when possible.

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