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SHOCKING DIARY: Not Accepted Into Lakewood Schools
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Iymnok




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Oct 29 2015, 12:32 pm
The Yashan IS yashan! That's how it could work. They have many tracks, include special needs, very experienced teachers and yoatzot, a history...
Their growing pains are long gone.
There are new schools that open up. 1-2 classes per grade.
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Chayalle




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Oct 29 2015, 12:35 pm
Iymnok wrote:
The Yashan IS yashan! That's how it could work. They have many tracks, include special needs, very experienced teachers and yoatzot, a history...
Their growing pains are long gone.
There are new schools that open up. 1-2 classes per grade.


Yeah, so maybe in 100 years Lakewood might have something like that. And likely there would still be girls not getting into high school, just like in Yerushalayim.

We need Mashiach....the problems aren't going away.
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Notsobusy




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Oct 29 2015, 4:30 pm
Chayalle wrote:
I see alot of both sides of the coin.

Should parents have no say in where they send their kids to school? Should they not try to get their kids into school A if they feel that it would be in their child's best interest? I see alot of resentment in Lakewood felt by parents who feel they were never given a chance.

OTOH, by not going with choice B or C they can end up without a school for their child.


You're right that it's not fair that we have no say in where we send our kids to school. But parents have to face reality, for their child's sake, even if it's not fair. Wouldn't your daughter rather start school on the first day, in the wrong school, without her friends than start after sukkos or later, probably in the wrong school without her friends?

I have a dd in 7th grade who will have the same problem you wrote about with your dd. Her 4 closest friends all have older sisters who don't go to the same high school as my older dd. So chances are my dd will not be with her friends. And this dd would do better in a different high school than my other dd. But I have to face reality. I can leave Lakewood, then she won't have any friends. I can keep her out of school and keep fighting but she probably won't get in to the school we want anyhow. Or I can do the smart, sad thing and send her to where she will get accepted. I am already discussing it with her now, so when the time comes she will be prepared.
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imalady




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Oct 29 2015, 5:06 pm
First of all, even if the diary is edited or faked, the sentiments are real.

A 14 year old does not understand the gray world of politics

For all of you who don't live in Lakewood, the situation is simply not as simple as you think. Some schools literally have 35+ girls in a class because of the enormous pressure they are under to "take her also, she's a fantastic girl from a fantastic family. Her father is a big talmid chacham who also made money in real estate." What could be better?

Nothing, but there are 1,000 such families in Lakewood and they all want to send to the same school.

Take her also. Her father is a massive talmid chacham who learns all day" Hurray, except there are 5,000 plus such people in Lakewood.

Take her also. The parents are the most ehrlich people you know. They give tzedokoh, they do Chessed, the father has a steady chavrusah for 2 hours every night! What more can you ask?!

Nothing, but there are literally thousands of ehrliche families here.

You can see the problem then...thousands, yes thousands of wonderful 14 yr olds, whose fathers all learned in BMG, who do their best to be good Jews, and only a certain amount of slots in the "Ivy league" schools. The situation is extremely difficult. Every girl is a gem. Every family is "choshuv" and everyone only wants_______.

You can't tell someone what to do with their daughter. but you can't tell a school who to accept either. That's the issue.
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zaq




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Oct 29 2015, 5:15 pm
sky wrote:
And the MO community is not growing the way the Lakewood community is, How many more students are added to the registration every year? In Lakewood it is a few hundred. Its a very different setup. Family sizes are very large and you have literally hundreds of new couples moving to town yearly.

I do believe there was a post by a MO mother explaining there were plenty of issues with their system, and kids were turned away from schools that they very badly wanted to get into. So if a teen has 3 MO high schools picked out he would like to attend he is guaranteed to get into one of the 3?


No, of course not. Academically competitive schools do turn away kids who don't pass the entrance exam. That's the purpose of the exam--DUH! To weed out kids who would be unable to hack a school of that academic level. But, see, there is no way MO parents would let their kid stay home. They would find a school for their kid if it meant contracting with a car service to take them to school an hour and a half away, or send them to a less strict school and hire a tutor for limudei kodesh so they could keep up with their peers (and possibly be accepted to one of their top choice schools the following year), or send them to a nonsectarian private school or even a public school IF they lived in an area with good public schools, of which there are some in NJ, and hire tutors for limudei kodesh.

This is a different mindset: one says "we can't get into the schools we want so we won't go to school, period" while the other says "we didn't get into the schools we want so we'll do what we have to do even if it's not precisely what we hoped for."
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zaq




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Oct 29 2015, 5:30 pm
So what about that new school that's "different" that has plenty of room? Seems to me that all the charediest LW families need to do is send all their dds to that school, and they will by sheer force of numbers change the character of the school to one more like them. Unless this new school is not a school at all but a geisha training center, I have zero sympathy for parents who would rather their dds stay home than send them to a school that's somewhat different from what the parents are used to. Are they giving exams on Shabbos? Preaching atheism? Advocating free love and same-gender marriage? Growing marijuana in biology class? Requiring attendance at heavy-metal rock concerts to satisfy the state music requirement? Teaching the proper spelling and definitions of well-known vulgarisms? No? Then what's the problem?
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Chocomama




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Oct 29 2015, 5:54 pm
it seems to me that there are some genuine stories but unfortunately a lot of immature parents who can't seem to deal with a challenge. it must go my way or I will tantrum until I get my way. humph. I would imagine if I were a principal, that at a certain point, my mind would just shut off because it would take so long to weed through the unreasonable and get to the reasonable. this way everyone loses out. what a pity.
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SorGold




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Oct 29 2015, 6:36 pm
imalady wrote:
First of all, even if the diary is edited or faked, the sentiments are real.

A 14 year old does not understand the gray world of politics

For all of you who don't live in Lakewood, the situation is simply not as simple as you think. Some schools literally have 35+ girls in a class because of the enormous pressure they are under to "take her also, she's a fantastic girl from a fantastic family. Her father is a big talmid chacham who also made money in real estate." What could be better?

Nothing, but there are 1,000 such families in Lakewood and they all want to send to the same school.

Take her also. Her father is a massive talmid chacham who learns all day" Hurray, except there are 5,000 plus such people in Lakewood.

Take her also. The parents are the most ehrlich people you know. They give tzedokoh, they do Chessed, the father has a steady chavrusah for 2 hours every night! What more can you ask?!

Nothing, but there are literally thousands of ehrliche families here.

You can see the problem then...thousands, yes thousands of wonderful 14 yr olds, whose fathers all learned in BMG, who do their best to be good Jews, and only a certain amount of slots in the "Ivy league" schools. The situation is extremely difficult. Every girl is a gem. Every family is "choshuv" and everyone only wants_______.

You can't tell someone what to do with their daughter. but you can't tell a school who to accept either. That's the issue.


Out of curiosity, what makes a school "ivy league" in Lakewood?
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5mom




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Oct 30 2015, 12:39 am
All the brand name schools were new once upon a time. If the administration is organized, even a school in its first year will be well run. And the good reputation will come.

I can't express myself quite as colorfully as zaq (who can?) but she's absolutely right. Nice frum people are opening nice frum schools. Give them a chance.
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ora_43




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Oct 30 2015, 12:40 am
JAWSCIENCE wrote:
They are not responsible to the tax paying public. They are responsible to the Jewish community since that is where the money to fund them comes from. If they are opened to be private money making enterprises then your statement is correct. But they are not. They are opened to ensure Jewish education for all Jewish children and THEY FUNDRAISE ad nauseous stating this is needed to ensure all Jewish kids have Jewish education. So how can they let a perfectly normal Jewish child not have a spot?

I am talking about Jewish schools since they all FUNDRAISE and use community funds.

They fundraise, but they don't get guaranteed money like public schools do.

Look at sky's post on page 4. Someone who wants to open a school, or open a new class in an existing school, needs huge sums of money. What if they fundraise saying they need money so that all Jewish kids can have a Jewish education, and they end up raising just 70% of the money they need? Do they have an obligation to provide an education to 100% of the children, with 70% of the necessary resources?

In my city, there are public religious schools that are legally required to provide a spot for each kid, and that works because the city is legally required to provide funding for each child, and the city can do that because residents are legally required to pay taxes. I don't think the system would work if schools were required to provide a spot to each kid, but residents got to choose whether or not to respond to the school's requests for funding. In fact, I can't think of any system with legal obligations to the public that works on a "pay if you feel like it" basis.
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watergirl




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Oct 30 2015, 4:30 am
zaq wrote:
So what about that new school that's "different" that has plenty of room? Seems to me that all the charediest LW families need to do is send all their dds to that school, and they will by sheer force of numbers change the character of the school to one more like them. Unless this new school is not a school at all but a geisha training center, I have zero sympathy for parents who would rather their dds stay home than send them to a school that's somewhat different from what the parents are used to. Are they giving exams on Shabbos? Preaching atheism? Advocating free love and same-gender marriage? Growing marijuana in biology class? Requiring attendance at heavy-metal rock concerts to satisfy the state music requirement? Teaching the proper spelling and definitions of well-known vulgarisms? No? Then what's the problem?

You are spot on - but soon a Lakewooder will comment that you "dont get" Lakewood. And that for shidduchim that will never work. Whatever the excuse. The truth is, Lakewood is a tiny slice of the country and I am 100% positive that there is a perfect match for their dds somewhere... These families are choosing any old school or worse - no school - over picking up and leaving the maddness. One thing Ill never understand is how Lakewood is Ir HaTorah and yet the middos the kids are learning is that you must bribe and beg. Like the description above about how much the father learns or earns... What does that tell you about the girl? Nothing! If a wife wants to sacrifice for her husbands learning, fine, it only effects herself. Once you have kids in the mix and they are suffering too, its time to reevaluate. Your husbands Torah is more important that your kids mental wellbeing? Or his real eatate fortune? I dont get it. Maybe I dont get Lakewood, maybe its amazing and what we read here is just the worst and ugliest (and I know every community has its issues!). But why is this ok?
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JAWSCIENCE




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Oct 30 2015, 5:20 am
ora_43 wrote:
They fundraise, but they don't get guaranteed money like public schools do.

Look at sky's post on page 4. Someone who wants to open a school, or open a new class in an existing school, needs huge sums of money. What if they fundraise saying they need money so that all Jewish kids can have a Jewish education, and they end up raising just 70% of the money they need? Do they have an obligation to provide an education to 100% of the children, with 70% of the necessary resources?

In my city, there are public religious schools that are legally required to provide a spot for each kid, and that works because the city is legally required to provide funding for each child, and the city can do that because residents are legally required to pay taxes. I don't think the system would work if schools were required to provide a spot to each kid, but residents got to choose whether or not to respond to the school's requests for funding. In fact, I can't think of any system with legal obligations to the public that works on a "pay if you feel like it" basis.

I actually do not think schools are required to take in every child if they do not have space and it would mean sub par teaching but they do still have some public responsibility since they are supposed to be non profits funded for public good by large donations from the public. This means taking in as many as they have capacity for and not using the position of gatekeeper to arbitrarily torture people or elicit bribes. A fresh kugel every week for a year? Elaborate fruit platters? People who did not refuse those brines should be ashamed. Same goes for refusing kids because you do not like the parents. If the kids are all normal/academically sound you should not be refusing for any reason other than space. And you can't be upset or try to block shunting of funds to open a new desperately needed school. You should support that school instead of fostering the idea that is some sh place set up for rejects from your ivory tower.

I also think the vaad or whatever rabbinical authority in the town handles tzedakah money does have a responsibility to create new schools and allocate money accordingly. Obviously if they don't have enough money to go around for new schools and tuition scholarships they should do as much as they can and those spots should be given without bribes and extortion. You can't send me fliers In t he mail about how every Yiddish neshama needs an education and please send in money to help/ how can I sit idly by blah blah and then shrug your shoulders at girls sitting home for months because their mother didn't have enough time or money to bribe school officials. You can't say "not my job. I'm not the government". For all intents and purposes in a place like Lakewood the rabbi is the government. If they told people to break the law I bet at least fifty percent would for fear it would affect school placement or Shiddichim. And that's not a judgement on those people. That's the reality of the social pressure they live in. Your kids are used to force you to conform.

. (This excludes people refusing a school because they like another one better. Barring extenuating circumstances that's just inane)

But I don't live in Lakewood because a system where you keep encouraging population growth without the money to handle it plus the presence of extreme social pressure to conform do not sit well with me. I do not like places where the rabbinic heads practically act like government. They took that communal responsibility on themselves and they must now live up to it and find a way to get these kids into schools.


Lakewood has many Good aspects but threads like this one or the Mikvah ones make me realize I could never live there.
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JAWSCIENCE




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Oct 30 2015, 5:28 am
In a separate note, schools are not pay if you like it. Once the committee determines how much you owe you have to pay that. They have every right to refuse to educate your child if you have the means and refuse to pay.

Many non profits like museums have public obligations set forth in their charters and are pay as you like it. They meet these obligations by giving their available space first come first serve. Not bake me a kugel every week or I'll ruin your kids life. The exception the large donors who fund the institution who may jump the line because this ensures the continuation of the organization.
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Chayalle




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Oct 30 2015, 5:32 am
SorGold wrote:
Out of curiosity, what makes a school "ivy league" in Lakewood?
Honestly? A school that has massive peer pressure among the students, and parents that feed into it.
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Mevater




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Oct 30 2015, 5:32 am
Whatever happened to all parents unifying and keeping all their kids home until every child in Lakewood has a school that is seen as a sensible option. Nothing would change things as quickly as that! Trust me, the powers in Lakewood would "move it" and create a solution.

I imagine that there are some parents who are being unnecessarily choosy about schools, but there are probably an equal amount who are given options that make zero sense to the families' Hashkafos. And they shouldn't be considered immature for refusing.
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sky




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Oct 30 2015, 5:36 am
some clarifications:
Quote:
I also think the vaad or whatever rabbinical authority in the town handles tzedakah money does have a responsibility to create new schools and allocate money accordingly.

- The vaad that does school placements collects NO money for schools or otherwise, so they don't have a monetary obligation. There is no central vaad that collects for schools, each school takes care of itself. I think people would have a very hard time collecting money for "general" schooling.

Quote:
But I don't live in Lakewood because a system where you keep encouraging population growth without the money to handle it plus the presence of extreme social pressure to conform do not sit well with me.

- In terms of population growth were many are moving from "OOT" just because of housing costs is NOT being encouraged, it is just happening. I have a feeling that many old time Lakewooders would love for Lakewood to stay the small town, yeshiva style, enclosed community it once was, rather then the mini-"large" Flatbush metropolis it is becoming. I think even new comers are being frustrated with some of the uncontrolled growth (traffic congestion among it)

Quote:
They took that communal responsibility on themselves and they must now live up to it and find a way to get these kids into schools.


I think people are being told that they will have a hard time getting their child into school if they just move here. No one is guaranteeing spots. And yet people keep moving here and then complain when it doesn't work out.
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Mevater




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Oct 30 2015, 5:56 am
sky wrote:
I think people are being told that they will have a hard time getting their child into school if they just move here. No one is guaranteeing spots. And yet people keep moving here and then complain when it doesn't work out.


Blame Brooklyn real estate prices for that. You have to live somewhere you can afford. Not really anyone's choice. Many would prefer Brooklyn.
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monseygirl1




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Oct 30 2015, 6:12 am
I know it's not only this year that Lakewood has a problem like this. But I can tell you the situation this year, is that that new, small school mentioned was going to close due to lack of students. In order to try to save it, (because Lakewood does need more schools) at a certain point the other schools agreed not to accept more students so all who need a school would be forced to go there.
I understand people not wanting to go to school with 3 others in class, but I think at this point the other schools feel like the 9 girls left are unwilling to work with the system, and they're just not interested in dealing with them anymore.
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watergirl




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Oct 30 2015, 6:16 am
Mevater wrote:
Blame Brooklyn real estate prices for that. You have to live somewhere you can afford. Not really anyone's choice. Many would prefer Brooklyn.


No. Dont blame Brooklyn. Blame the sheepole mentality that dictates you have to live "in town" or else. There is actually a whole world out there with affordable real estate. Brooklyn and Lakewood (or Monsey!) and not the limits to the jewish universe. Not by far.
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Chayalle




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Oct 30 2015, 6:19 am
monseygirl1 wrote:
I know it's not only this year that Lakewood has a problem like this. But I can tell you the situation this year, is that that new, small school mentioned was going to close due to lack of students. In order to try to save it, (because Lakewood does need more schools) at a certain point the other schools agreed not to accept more students so all who need a school would be forced to go there.
I understand people not wanting to go to school with 3 others in class, but I think at this point the other schools feel like the 9 girls left are unwilling to work with the system, and they're just not interested in dealing with them anymore.


If this is true, then this is exactly the problem. I have to admit, I would feel resentful if it were me.

None of the people making this decision on behalf of the 9 girls have ever been in their shoes. I assure you all of their daughters have likely gotten into their first choice. But they blithely say the girls have a school, the parents are unreasonable, and we can't help those who won't help themselves.
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