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SIDS
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Dolly Welsh




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Nov 04 2015, 12:35 pm
I thought it is about poor ventilation.

The baby, like everybody else, exhales carbon dioxide, and has to breathe in new air that has oxygen. Normally, air is always swirling around, and the baby's exhaled, used up, air is wafted away and new air comes.

When he is in a room with no air currents, no window or door ajar, no fan, and no air circulating at all, he may not get new breathable air. He can be lying in a pool of unmoving, unbreathable, air, which came out of him. Not good. This is more likely to happen in a small room, a typical "baby's room". Just have a small fan there and the door ajar.

A kid lying in a covered carrier or carseat is not getting new air. Because of the cover. No matter how cold it is, the cover must be open.

Lying on his back or his front, as far as I can tell, as little effect on the situation. The main thing is, is there any new air available to him? If not, it won't matter what position he is lying in, as far as I can tell. There is simply nothing there he can use. Lying this way or that doesn't help much. It's not there.

So, it's about air.

From what I can gather. But I am no medic of any kind.
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seeker




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Nov 04 2015, 12:40 pm
It's not that simple. Everyone needs air. Many people will find it if there isn't any. Why are some babies not able to do so? I have seen various theories with different levels of support. There are also other reasons a baby may stop breathing even if there is air available. You say that lying this way or that doesn't help much, but empirical research disagrees with you, I definitely remember reading that there was a significant decrease in SIDS after the "back to sleep" campaign.
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Chayalle




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Nov 04 2015, 12:44 pm
Some say that babies with low muscle tone may have a harder time getting the air, hence the higher incidence of SIDS.

Truthfully, back-to-sleep never worked for me - my babies were so hard to put to sleep, they never would sleep on their backs. Since they were all very agile, they already lifted their heads up in the hospital....I never really worried much putting them to sleep on their stomaches.

A neighbor of mine told me she had a brother R"L who died of SIDS...on his back.
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Dolly Welsh




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Nov 04 2015, 12:48 pm
Low muscle tone would not help, no. But a baby with low muscle tone in a well ventilated room would have something to work with: good air. Yes: a baby's little lungs aren't strong enough to create their own air currents. An adult might get through the night in the same room, because of having stronger lungs.

So, a baby needs new air to be given to him. He cannot bring it to himself. Open the cover on the carrier. Open the door. Have a fan.
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amother
cornflower


 

Post Wed, Nov 04 2015, 12:52 pm
There's also the toxic gas theory. http://www.mommypotamus.com/do.....sids/

It's only a theory, of course, like all our theories about SIDS, but the mattress wraps are pretty cheap and I felt like it was worthwhile hishtadlus.
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Dolly Welsh




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Nov 04 2015, 1:01 pm
I can see that if there is LITTLE new air available, not none at all, but SOME, but not enough, a suffocating baby might get a LITTLE more of air, lying on his back. His lungs are now on top of him, and his nose is on top of him. That might account for the decrease in SIDS deaths after putting them on their backs.

But one must know what is really going on here: there shouldn't be such a scarcity of air in the first place.

A well ventilated room allows the baby to sleep any way, it seems to me.

But the perilous situation was the culprit, not the techniques for surviving on too little air.

Rather, let there be no problem of surviving on too little air, in the first place. And we were told the baby can aspirate spit-up if on his back.

And, some babies hate the feeling of sleeping on their backs. There may be no usefulness in making them do that, in a well ventilated room. Stress matters too.

Some SIDS deaths may be caused by a defect inside the baby, his neurology failing, or other causes. Not from an external factor, such as air. But sleep position wouldn't do much for that.

If it's air, and that is the main cause of SIDS, I have the impression, the issue remains ventilation, not sleep position.

But I am no medic of any kind.
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amother
Indigo


 

Post Wed, Nov 04 2015, 1:10 pm
SIDS by definition has no cause.

That being said I've participated in CPR on two 2 month old babies who died presumably SIDS. One was in his mothers arms nursing when he stopped breathing. The other had been fed two hours prior and wasn't responsive when mother went to check two hours later.
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Dolly Welsh




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Nov 04 2015, 1:11 pm
There was a recent death in a closed car seat. The article is full of thinking that it was the baby's sleep position. But the cover was closed. Because it was cold.

And anyway, aren't car seats back-sleeping by nature? Who lies face down in a car seat?

Just ventilate, is all I am saying, it seems to me that is the main thing.

Air does not move by itself in a small place. There are little battery operated fans one can put on a shelf. And the door should be ajar.

Air moves because one part of it is a different temperature than another part. Warm air rises, and that makes it circulate. A larger room has different parts, that are different temperature. But have a fan there, too.
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5*Mom




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Nov 04 2015, 1:20 pm
Dolly, what you are describing is not classified as SIDS. It may be suffocation or asphyxiation and an autopsy would reveal evidence of these causes of death so by definition that isn't SIDS. Not all infant death is SIDS. SIDS is a very specific category of infant death--the deaths for which no cause or evidence such as high rates of CO2 can be found. Back to Sleep aims to reduce the rate of SIDS--unexplained infant death.

Having said all that, my babies are belly sleepers for a variety of reasons. But if you're going to post theories about a medical condition, you should probably do some reading about it first. There is information readily available.
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amother
Red


 

Post Wed, Nov 04 2015, 1:21 pm
I have been discussing this topic a lot lately, hence the anonymity:

Wouldn't it be reasonable to claim that the decrease in SIDS can be explained simply?

With the advancements in the medical world, we can diagnose and pinpoint diseases and conditions in infants that we weren't able to several decades ago.

Babies dying used to be an unfortunate occurrence, and without the medical knowledge we have today, many deaths were simply labelled as SIDS.

In today's day and age, everything has a name and condition, so on those occasions when doctors cannot pinpoint the cause, it is categorized as SIDS.

Hashem Yerachem

ETA Posted before reading all responses.
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chavs




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Nov 04 2015, 1:36 pm
Dolly Welsh wrote:
There was a recent death in a closed car seat. The article is full of thinking that it was the baby's sleep position. But the cover was closed. Because it was cold.

And anyway, aren't car seats back-sleeping by nature? Who lies face down in a car seat?


The issues with car seats is not about being on the front or back. Leaving a baby to sleep in a car seat can be dangerous because of the position baby is in when in the seat. Baby's chin is usually down, which can obstruct breathing.
Car seats are in other words for safe travel but should not be used outside the car.

http://m.nzherald.co.nz/lifest.....98599
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Dolly Welsh




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Nov 04 2015, 1:49 pm
So, belly sleeping is ok, and there are many kinds of SIDS some of which are still unexplained. But belly sleeping is ok. And air circulation is important.

To me, these are the conclusions of this thread from the posts above. I was only addressing belly sleeping, saying IT is not causing problems. Yes, OTHER things can cause problems, and a big, obvious, and very dangerous one is poor air circulation.




Other problems and causes of SIDS certainly do exist, but that is for a different post. This was JUST about whether sleep position, or, sleep carrier or bed type, matter for SIDS prevention. They may not.

The big emphasis on back sleeping as a strongly mandated thing may not be appropriate, and may even take focus off air circulation, a common danger.

It is good that some babies were saved in poor-air conditions who might have been lost on their stomachs. But we should just make sure there is moving air, and not RELY on back sleeping to get through poor air conditions.

And stress matters. Some babies may hate back sleeping.
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Dolly Welsh




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Nov 04 2015, 1:58 pm
chavs wrote:
The issues with car seats is not about being on the front or back. Leaving a baby to sleep in a car seat can be dangerous because of the position baby is in when in the seat. Baby's chin is usually down, which can obstruct breathing.
Car seats are in other words for safe travel but should not be used outside the car.

http://m.nzherald.co.nz/lifest.....98599


OH!!! I didn't know about the chin down position.

Well. Good you pointed that out.

Wait: he shouldn't be in a partially air-blocked situation even wide awake and in the daytime. And a baby drops off for a nap anywhere. Not a good design even for one minute. Even in a car with noise and rushing air. Poor position for him to be in. Maybe there is a way to position the seat so the baby reclines more, and the chin not down.
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5*Mom




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Nov 04 2015, 2:27 pm
Dolly Welsh wrote:
So, belly sleeping is ok,under certain circumstances and with medical advice it may be and there are many kinds of SIDS some of which are still unexplainedNo again. SIDS by definition is the kind of infant death that is unexplained. If there is an explanation for a baby's death--like lack of air flow--then by definition it is not SIDS. But belly sleeping is ok. No, it may not be. See above. And air circulation is important. I don't think anyone is going to argue with you on this.

To me, these are the conclusions of this thread from the posts above. I was only addressing belly sleeping, saying IT is not causing problems. I'd be interested to compare your studies to other published data on the topic of SIDS.Yes, OTHER things can cause problems, and a big, obvious, and very dangerous one is poor air circulation.




Other problems and causes of SIDS certainly do exist, but that is for a different post. This was JUST about whether sleep position, or, sleep carrier or bed type, matter for SIDS prevention. They may not.

The big emphasis on back sleeping as a strongly mandated thing may not be appropriate, and may even take focus off air circulation, a common danger. Dolly, honey, these things have been studied. There is data. Your conclusions are not supported by the data.

It is good that some babies were saved in poor-air conditions who might have been lost on their stomachs. But we should just make sure there is moving air, and not RELY on back sleeping to get through poor air conditions.

And stress matters. Some babies may hate back sleeping.

I would just let these posts go if I thought these ramblings wouldn't matter one way or another to anybody, but in matters of safety it is irresponsible to put forth random, baseless theory as if it were fact when in reality one is grossly under-informed.

You're ignoring the data and medical knowledge (I.e. an autopsy would reveal whether cause of death was suffocation due to positional airway obstruction or asphyxiation due to a covered car seat; there's no need to guess. There are medical ways to determine this for real) and taking your best stab at things and this can potentially be dangerous to someone's baby. You really need to stop making declarations and pronouncements and maybe just READ UP on the topic BEFORE you form your theories.
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Dolly Welsh




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Nov 04 2015, 2:34 pm
Are you saying people should continue to back sleep just to be on the safe side?

But your kids are belly-sleeping, you say.

I am not sure we disagree about anything.
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water_bear88




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Nov 04 2015, 2:48 pm
How about we agree that in addition to back sleeping (which, if I recall correctly, reduces SIDS risk by 50%)- ventilation is very important as well. As is preventing positional asphyxia, suffocation, and any other kind of asphyxiation. On top of that, it would probably be a good thing if all new parents were taught infant CPR.
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5*Mom




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Nov 04 2015, 3:18 pm
Dolly Welsh wrote:
Are you saying people should continue to back sleep just to be on the safe side?

But your kids are belly-sleeping, you say.

I am not sure we disagree about anything.

My kids belly sleep due to other health and risk factors which I assessed for each child together with my pediatrician. I do always give back sleeping a go at first. Some babies have had severe reflux, others just. would. not. sleep. on their backs. At all. That is also a health factor to be considered. But I disagree with your wholesale dismissal of back sleeping. That needs to be a medically informed decision and assessed on a case by case basis.
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Dolly Welsh




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Nov 04 2015, 3:27 pm
OK. Got it.
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amother
Salmon


 

Post Wed, Nov 04 2015, 6:06 pm
I have a sibling that almost died of SIDS at one month old. He was in his car seat sleeping and then my mother walked in the room and found him a terrible shade of blue/green. He was hospitalized for a few days and while in the hospital (on his back) it happened a few more times. His O2 levels would drop really low and then the Dr. would rub him and he'd come back. They said he was an almost SIDS baby.

In the end, they didn't know what was wrong with him and sent him home on a heart monitor. B"H nothing ever happened again.

He was born a month early and was in the NICU at the very beginning for a day since they were concerned about him being early (I think!)
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amother
Lemon


 

Post Wed, Nov 04 2015, 7:35 pm
I was told by my lactation consultant that the formula companies funded the Back to Sleep campaign because studies indicated the number one common factor for SIDS decades ago was formula feeding (and smoking).
She told me in NICUs the babies are all put on their bellies.
I put my babies on their backs and they were horrible sleepers and I would love to believe this is true next time around but I am too scared to try belly sleep.
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