Touro or Stern instead of sem

singleagain

Wed, Dec 16 2015, 8:51 am

amother wrote:

Sem wise, she is not wanting a fifth year of high school (even though she wants a year of fun in EY)

When I was considering sem, this was the number one important thing for me. I just had four years of high school I was looking at four years of college coming up, I did not want another year of hard school with tests and papers and such. I wanted a school where yes, I would learn bc it's school, but without the stress. One that's fun and have me new experiences. Unfortunately, there school I went to has since shut down. But, it was on a large campus with other schools, and that ended up being the best for me, bc while I would have been stressed out at some of the other schools, the girls from some of the other schools were more similar to me, than most of the girls at my school.

I'm understanding your desire to have your daughter with like-minded girls, who you how will keep her in the direction you want for her, but please don't do that at the expense of her mental/emotional health and happiness.

amother

Red

Sun, Jan 08 2017, 2:12 pm

I'm the original OP poster and now we are facing this decision for real. Ultimately decided to send dd18 to sem in US and it's going ok..meaning she is not really trying to get much out of it. Having said that, she does not want to leave sem. Our relationship is very strained...she's snarky, hangs up on me when she is irritated (blames it on pms), has gotten in lots of conflict with hanhala over not keeping tznius, al pi halacha. I told you all she was headed MO, and at this point, I would be so grateful if she holds there. She is steeped in goyishkeit (unfiltered laptop/phone, watches Keeping up with Kardashians, follows supermodel shtuss). I'm just giving you some background.

She is applying to Touro basically as default. We will NOT qualify for financial aid, so Stern would be difficult for us. We fall out in the squeezed upper middle class (B"H...I am grateful for this, but...). I really don't see how she is going to manage a 25 block walk both ways in NYC, stress of a heavy course load, and her usual roommate difficulties (has had her room shuffled already). She will not consider alternatives like The New Sem, or Ateres Naava, or a cheaper more heimish place. We will NOT consider a secular school at this point. We have one at a university already...completely OTD.

Is it worth us struggling to have her in Stern so she would have a bit more supervision, or should I just see what happens at Touro? I will say she has high SAT scores and very good grades from high school. Also, she has some very strong friends at Touro and Stern. I'm tired of spending a small fortune on her actually.

pesek zman

Sun, Jan 08 2017, 2:33 pm

amother wrote:

Stern is great. I went there, I would send my daughter there. But it's not sem. And the 'supervision' is minimal.

Not knowing the specifics of what it means to have her tznius become an issue, while there is an official dress code for the school building (where classes are held) it is minimally enforced, and there is no dress code for the dorms. While guys aren't allowed in the dorms, there are lots of places in this grand city for her to steal alone time with a guy, if she wanted to. And stern's Hebrew curriculum is nothing like that taught in sem. It's not mussar or hashkafah: it's Halacha, or tanach etc. coming from a BY type high school, there was a huge difference in how the Hebrew subjects were taught

Now, the independence and openness (to women of all different backgrounds) and the fact that it's not being rammed down her throat may work for her. She may start to find her way. But it may not be at all what YOU are looking for her.

mummiedearest

Sun, Jan 08 2017, 2:41 pm

amother wrote:

first, no one walks 25 blocks in ny. they take the train or the bus. she'll be fine.

second, I went to touro because my mother insisted. a lot of the decisions she made for me were based on her not wanting me to go OTD like my sis, who went to brooklyn college. I hated the school experience, felt incredibly limited in what I could go for, got a useless degree, and still resent my mother for it. I was a good kid, never gave any reason for her to think I was going to leave yiddishkeit, but she didn't trust me one bit. you say you have another kid OTD in secular university. just make sure you're not taking out your frustrations from that one on this kid. it's not fair to her.

I don't think you've given your child a chance to make her own decisions, and it's backfiring. I am strongly against parents choosing their child's college. she's at an age where she should be making some important decisions for herself. seriously, you didn't want her to go to Israel partially because she's beautiful and might end up hanging out with guys? where's the trust? you trusted her enough to send her away for part of high school. did you think she can't get into the exact same trouble in the US as she can in Israel? Let me tell you this: any kid who wants to get into drugs, premarital s-x, etc. can and will find it in any community the kid is in. plenty of kids get into trouble while living under their own parents' roof. you say she's a sweet kid, does good things, is a good student, etc. you're not giving her credit where credit is due. she's a good kid. repeat that without all the "buts" and "steeped in goyishkeit" and "not tznius enough." those are her choices, and she can choose to change them if she wants to. are you planning to choose who she marries, where she lives once married, how many children she will have, what kind of bar mitzvahs she throws them, which yeshivas they attend, what grocery store she goes to, what color eyeshadow she wears when she's 45? I really hope not. please realize this: allowing her to choose her own college means allowing her to choose her career. touro is fine for girls who want certain basic careers seen fit for BY girls. it's kind of torturous for an artistic girl. having controlling parents who monitor your roommate situation from abroad is not helpful. the time has come for you to let go of some of your worry about her and allow her to worry about herself. otherwise, get ready for a lifetime of snark.

amother

Red

Sun, Jan 08 2017, 3:03 pm

OP here...At her last high school (all girls/frum/ mixed backgrounds...waaay oot), her principal expressed concerns about letting her go to EY...thought she'd hang out with boys. Her boarding mom (rebbetzin of shul ) expressed this to me as well. Just last week, the woman who runs the sem told me if there were boys around, she would probably be involved with them. THIS is why I'm so concerned. She has a pattern of attaching herself to girls that are charismatic and take her to a lower level.

She told me she wants to study psychology! I said, NO way are we paying $40K for that. Told her she has to have something where she can get a job afterwards without a master's degree. If she wants online school, then psych is fine, just not for this kind of money.

I'll ask her to get hopping on the Stern app too. Her principal feels she is "sneaky" and so do I. It's a really not good feeling to think this way about one's dd, but I get this feedback. She is never happy. I've asked her if she even wants to be frum and she says yes. Yes, she has had therapy, but does not seem to have any significant issues, other than stress.

Is there such a difference between the schools because Touro is much cheaper?

amother

Aubergine

Sun, Jan 08 2017, 3:20 pm

Academically, Stern is light years ahead of Touro. But a motivated girl will succeed wherever she is.

Neither place offers much supervision. That's because if you're old enough to go to college, you're old enough to make your own decisions. This is when parents back off.

In terms of your concerns:
1. You'd be amazed at how many rebbetzins kept up with popular music and celebrity gossip back in the day.
2. If she's going to get into trouble, she will do it whether she's at the world's most sheltered seminary or at a secular college. Yes, it's easier without supervision, but if she's the type to sneak around, she'll find a way.

I know you would like to keep your daughter on a certain path, but it looks like she's chosen otherwise. Try widening the derech and maybe she'll stay on.

amother

Pink

Sun, Jan 08 2017, 3:30 pm

If I was your daughter, I'd be feeling very restricted, constricted, and chafing at the edge...

I was bright, artistic and quirky. My parents tried keeping me on their version of the straight and very narrow. It backfired. I needed space, I needed freedom to make my own decisions.

I don't know what to tell you. Maybe your daughter needs to become more financially independent so she can make her own choices. But it sounds like you are managing your daughter's life - with the best of intentions - and you might need to take a step or two back.

And she might make mistakes. But that's what growing up is all about. In order to become a responsible adult, your daughter needs to be able to make her own mistakes - and own them, and learn from them. As much as you would love to protect her, at a certain point, mothers need to let go of their daughters...

amother

White

Sun, Jan 08 2017, 4:39 pm

amother wrote:

Another amother here ITA. I could have written this.

mummiedearest

Sun, Jan 08 2017, 4:49 pm

amother wrote:

I see. has your daughter actually been caught hanging out with guys? has she personally given you reason to distrust her? is this just because of her dress? you just said she was popular in school, but attaches herself to charismatic girls of "lesser" philosophy. do you not see why she'd be upset at you? holy mackerel, I'd never want to talk to you again.

then you tell her that you're not paying for the degree that she wants. but she can't go to a more affordable school (CUNY) because it's secular. you're not allowing her a career track that includes a masters. I'm ready to pull my hair out, seriously. psychology is not a bad degree to have! she's not going for a degree in gender studies, she wants a reasonable career that she has an interest in!

if I were your daughter, I'd learn to be sneaky asap. I would not have my own life. I would tell you I wanted to be frum, all while planning to run away from that lifestyle asap.

you can't insist that she go to the school of your choosing, then object to a career option that they legitimately offer. how about this: either pay for the school because it's where you want her to be, but let her choose her own path within its limits OR let her go to a secular college, get a job and pay for it herself. either of those options would likely make your relationship with her a lot less rocky. I think the issues she has are mom-related at this point. they may not have started that way, but I'd bet pretty strongly they are now.

saw50st8

Sun, Jan 08 2017, 5:29 pm

OP, Stern has a ton of options so she might start out wanting to study psychology and switch to something else. Many college students go off their original choices.

YU is the only college I know of that takes yeshiva tuition for elementary and high school into account. So there is that. There is also nothing wrong with her taking out student loans above the amount you can afford.

I went to stern for a year. It's a great school but it wasn't my cup of tea (I wanted more physics and engineering classes, so I went straight to engineering school). There are kids of all types. I think the harder part is not who she becomes friends with but you accepting that she is an adult and even though you may still be a big part of her life, your influence is kind of over. She's communicating to you what type of lifestyle she wants and you need to figure out a way to support her, even if you don't agree with her.

I will say that in my day, the girls who sound like your daughter who went to Touro were more likely to continue rebelling against their parents, whereas in Stern they could find MO kids who might like Kim Kardashian and also like learning Tanach. It's not an either or.

amother

Red

Sun, Jan 08 2017, 6:52 pm

OP again. There is a $20K difference in tuition between these schools. Am I to understand there aren't many MO girls at Touro? I have a close friend whose daughter is leaving Stern and coming back home to go to secular school because shabbes in the dorm is so "schvach". She is not very happy there and for the huge amount they are paying...it's not worth it. Her dd is a very solid MO girl and there are no worries with a secular school.

I feel I have a responsibility to give dd a supportive environment that we can truly afford as well. I have told her she can go to a secular school if she wants (gulp) but she said she doesn't want to do that. It's not like she is not excited to see Touro. She has not complained at all. I think if she saw there was only one kind of girl there...yeshivish...that would be a deal breaker for her. She wants some variety. The website has girls from Sharfman's there, so I assume it's more diverse.

I've come around a lot as I never thought she would even want to go to college. Neither my dh or I did (I went for a few years...was a waste of time for me) and we are in business so it has not hampered us in the least, B"H. So, instead of looking into shidduchim, now we're looking at college. That's a big shift for us, however, going to an expensive school for a generic psych degree is not something we will entertain. I've suggested often that she get a job:)

mummiedearest

Sun, Jan 08 2017, 6:57 pm

amother wrote:

op, why are you doing the research? if you want to finance her college degree, that's nice. why not tell her what you can afford and let her do the research/decision making? college is not shidduchim. let her make her decisions. if she wants to go to a school that is out of your budget, she can figure out the funding on her own. she can research scholarships, talk to the school about financial aid, get a job, whatever. let her do it. this is an opportunity for her to grow into an adult. it's time for you to take a step back and let her do her thing.

saw50st8

Mon, Jan 09 2017, 8:33 am

amother wrote:

A lot of the Stern girls go home for shabbos, but the ones that stay have a nice time. And they bus in boys from YU, so she can meet some nice guys. Many of those students get married and have happy marriages :-)

Touro is definitely more yeshivish.

amother

Babyblue

Mon, Jan 09 2017, 9:35 am

amother wrote:

Her boarding mom is the rebetzin of the shul? That explains the conflict in regards to tznius and everything else. Your daughter is not "keeping up appearances" of someone else's standards, in this case, the rebetzin of a shul. Its not your daughters job to keep the standards of a rebetzin. I would switch her to a more relaxed environment so that she can be more comfortable being herself than who the rebetzin expects her to be, especially if they are calling her "sneaky" for being a regular teenager in a non-regular home (Rabbi's home but she is not the Rabbi's daughter). Must be a cognitive dissonance for her to live in such an environment.

That said, I would suggest that you look into the honors program at Brooklyn College. Yes, a secular school. But they have a huge frum community including lots of Chabad girls who are attending the school. She can get involved with Hillel and Chabad, study psychology, do research in the labs, and eventually apply for her Ph.D. If she gets into the honors program then it will be free for her to attend college and wont cost you a dime. And she can find a family to live with in Crown Heights which will keep her within the Chabad community when she is not in school. I know you said that you don't want to send her to a secular school but I think that you should at least apply to the honors program and see if she gets accepted so she has another option open to her other than Stern and Touro. Good Luck!