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Which is worse, avoda zara or atheism?
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yo'ma




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Nov 12 2015, 9:18 am
Or are they equal?
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sourstix




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Nov 12 2015, 9:24 am
very interesting question. an atheist believes there is no g-d. and avoda zara is that type of g-d. are you asking in terms of who is comitting a worse crime according to the torah? or who ends up having a more moral lifestyle?
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chani8




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Nov 12 2015, 9:33 am
My gosh, what a question. I think atheism is worse, I guess. Because at least with avoda zara, you recognize there is a g-d (a higher power) of some kind out there. But then again, it depends on what kind of avoda zara you mean. The throw-your-kid-in-the-fire kind is freaky crazy stuff. I was assuming you mean something like christianity, which isn't sooo avoda zara.
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etky




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Nov 12 2015, 9:36 am
Most likely avoda zara since it involves actions that are strictly prohibited and is even one of the seven Noahide laws, whereas aetheism is solely in the mind and entails no action, prohibited or otherwise.
Sure there is a mitzva, according to some thinkers, to believe in G-d. So if you don't believe you are sinning by not fulfilling a mitzvat aseh. I think that is not as bad as overtly transgressing a negative commandment, moreover a very strict prohibition that was given to all humanity, not only Jews.
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purpleink




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Nov 12 2015, 9:40 am
I was just thinking of this! I assumed atheism was less problematic as one is only transgressing the first commandment, recognizing Hashem as G-d. Those who serve avodah zara transgress the second commandment as well, not having other gods.
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yo'ma




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Nov 12 2015, 9:40 am
sourstix wrote:
very interesting question. an atheist believes there is no g-d. and avoda zara is that type of g-d. are you asking in terms of who is comitting a worse crime according to the torah? or who ends up having a more moral lifestyle?

According to the torah.
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chani8




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Nov 12 2015, 9:43 am
Can you be more specific about the avoda zara? Is there any 'real avoda zara' these days?
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etky




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Nov 12 2015, 9:46 am
chani8 wrote:
Can you be more specific about the avoda zara? Is there any 'real avoda zara' these days?


That's a good question. There are approaches that contend that biblical avoda zara no longer exists in the modern world. I think that even religions like Hinduism are not considered in the same category as classic biblical avoda zara.
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Iymnok




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Nov 12 2015, 9:48 am
chani8 wrote:
Can you be more specific about the avoda zara? Is there any 'real avoda zara' these days?

It does exist, there is just a MUCH smaller taiva for it. It's not common, but exists.
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chicco




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Nov 12 2015, 9:50 am
If you take into consideration the esers hadibros-

1. Hashem is G-d (and the only one at that)
2. Don't serve Avoda Zara

I think implied is that it is more fundamental to accept Hashem as Gd then to not serve AZ. Also plenty of times throughout our history, the Jews served AZ and Hashem. I think once they would have thrown Hashem out of their lives entirely, Hashem would have had a lot less tolerance.
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chicco




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Nov 12 2015, 9:54 am
I think there is avoda zara these days. Not like idol worship, but worship nonetheless. Materialism for one. Any strong taivos that compete with your ability to properly focus and serve Hashem. And even if they don't necessarily interfere, but you divide up your "worship" among Hashem and other things.
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etky




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Nov 12 2015, 10:02 am
chicco wrote:
If you take into consideration the esers hadibros-

1. Hashem is G-d (and the only one at that)
2. Don't serve Avoda Zara

I think implied is that it is more fundamental to accept Hashem as Gd then to not serve AZ. Also plenty of times throughout our history, the Jews served AZ and Hashem. I think once they would have thrown Hashem out of their lives entirely, Hashem would have had a lot less tolerance.


True, but by doing this what value did their worship of G-d really have?
True worship of G-d demands exclusivity. By worshipping other deities alongside G-d they demoted Hashem to the status of the other false gods. They did not appreciate his true Divine qualities and did not worship Him in the way He explicitly mandated. In doing this, they violated the covenant that He struck with us. So how much does that count for? According to the prophets, not much.
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etky




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Nov 12 2015, 10:04 am
chicco wrote:
I think there is avoda zara these days. Not like idol worship, but worship nonetheless. Materialism for one. Any strong taivos that compete with your ability to properly focus and serve Hashem. And even if they don't necessarily interfere, but you divide up your "worship" among Hashem and other things.


For sure there is avoda zara today, but there is an approach that views it as inherently different in its nature than the avoda zara referenced in the Bible. According to this approach, that specific type of avoda zara no longer exists.
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yo'ma




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Nov 12 2015, 10:14 am
chani8 wrote:
Can you be more specific about the avoda zara? Is there any 'real avoda zara' these days?

I was thinking of other g-ds, but whatever you think it is.
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Amarante




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Nov 12 2015, 10:44 am
Worse for who?

I'm not sure what the question is. Does it mean someone who was frum and becomes an atheist, for example. Or someone who was born into another religion or raised as an atheist and therefore isn't deliberately forsaking.

Is it different if someone was born to a Jewish mother but had no knowledge.
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etky




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Nov 12 2015, 11:35 am
Thinking about this some more.
Even those thinkers who do not enumerate belief in Hashem as one of the formal taryag mitzvot, understand this belief as the underpinning of our religion - the obvious tenet upon which the entire faith is based.
So though technically a non-believer is 'only' guilty of a sin of omission rather than transgressing the very severe prohibition of idolatry (a yehareg v'al ya'avor!) , I'm not sure that it's not equally grave. It begs the question of whether there is value to performing mitzvot w/o a fundamental belief in G-d.
This question has modern implications too for example in the case of Reconstructionism, which does not perceive G-d in a way that conforms to traditional, Orthodox Judaism but which advocates performing certain mitzvot for historical and ethical reasons. How is this movement to be viewed? They may not be idolators, but from a traditional perspective - is there any religious value to their performance of mitzvot?
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bandcm




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Nov 12 2015, 11:47 am
etky wrote:
That's a good question. There are approaches that contend that biblical avoda zara no longer exists in the modern world. I think that even religions like Hinduism are not considered in the same category as classic biblical avoda zara.



It most certainly exists.
Where I live, there is a religion called Candomble. They worship lots of different gods, and have massive statues of them all around a (really pretty) lake in the center of the city. On specific days of the year, one or other god has a feast day, and they all dress in white and go to a specific place (to the seashore, for example, if it's the god of the sea) and bring offerings of food, flowers, jewellery, and leave it there.
There are other religions here too, all of them very definitely avoda zara, but this is the most poular, having tens of thousands of devotees.
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bandcm




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Nov 12 2015, 11:48 am
etky wrote:
For sure there is avoda zara today, but there is an approach that views it as inherently different in its nature than the avoda zara referenced in the Bible. According to this approach, that specific type of avoda zara no longer exists.


See my post. Very Biblical avoda zara going on here Smile
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etky




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Nov 12 2015, 12:30 pm
bandcm wrote:
See my post. Very Biblical avoda zara going on here Smile


There is definitely paganism in this world. The distinction between biblical avoda zara and the modern form has more to do with the motivation to perform this type of worship and with practices that used to be associated with idolatry (murder, certain s-xual practices etc.) that are no longer considered acceptable in the modern world. Hence, even modern pagan religions and practices fall into a different category of avoda zara than the pagan rites of biblical times.
There are halachic implications to this distinction.
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saw50st8




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Nov 12 2015, 12:31 pm
chani8 wrote:
Can you be more specific about the avoda zara? Is there any 'real avoda zara' these days?


Have you been to Asia? Many people there practice full avoda zara including sacrifices for the gods. In Japan, people put food out for their statues to consume.
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