Is a Jewish school the right choice for every child?

amother

Seafoam

Fri, Nov 13 2015, 10:27 am

I'm a morah in an OOT day school. Each year, I have one or two students with severe learning difficulties, compounded by parents who can't read Hebrew and therefore are not able to help with homework/tests at all. My school is just not equipped to help students like this. What ultimately happens is that they are sitting in school day in and day out not understanding anything (or close to that) and feeling like failures. I just can't imagine this is good for their long-term self-esteem, success in life OR love for Torah/Yiddishkeit! I often wonder if these students would be better off in a good public school with resources for students with LDs, and only having to cope with ONE language, not two.

What do you think?

amother

Chartreuse

Fri, Nov 13 2015, 10:48 am

This is why we will never live OOT even though we'd very much like to. New York has schools that do have the resources to help students with learning disabilities. It's not that yeshiva isn't right for these kids, it's that no one in your area has made a yeshiva that is right for them. Of course, I don't think anyone is to blame. These resources are very expensive and it is not worth spending that kind of money, especially in a smaller community where statically there won't be that many who need it. In NY it is worth it because the community is so many people that it also means there are enough people with needs to warrant accommodating them.

amother

Seafoam

Fri, Nov 13 2015, 10:50 am

amother wrote:

But this IS the matzav, and most of the cases I'm talking about are families that were born and grew up in these cities and would never think of up and moving to NY.

I just wonder if in the end, these kids get more turned off to Torah in our schools than they would in public school.

TwinsMommy

Fri, Nov 13 2015, 11:38 am

public school works well for our kids (aside from the lack of limudei kodesh!) but if there WERE a day school in Cleveland that could handle severe behavioral/emotional/social issues, I'd be happy to have my kids in a Jewish school. No, Jewish school is NOT for every child--- unless there are a zillion different types of Jewish day schools to meet the needs of a zillion diff types of kids (ok, I know--- if I moved to NY there'd be a school for my kids).

Kugglegirl

Fri, Nov 13 2015, 12:18 pm

I know when I took one of my DD's out of dayschool to go to public school my rav questioned what it would do to her frumkeit and future shidducim.- we were not asking a shiala at that point, since the decision was a clear one for this child.

It was clear to me that going to public school was very important for her connection to yiddishkite, her chances to learn the skills for writing clearly- without which she would be very frustrated as an adult. Staying in day school at that point would have been a good way to turn her off from Jewish life.

I run a group for families with children outside of day school settings & if you ever have parents who want to explore what the options look like, I would be happy to connect parents with other parents who can share their experiences. This kind of connection has helped many parents to make a decision that is right for their child and their family.

chayamiriam

Fri, Nov 13 2015, 12:51 pm

My twin granddaughters have learning disabilities and are now in public school, at first I was horrified that they would choose a public school and not at least attempt a yeshiva. But now seeing how much their learning, emphasis on writing and already reading I see that yeshiva would not have been able to meet their needs. It's horrible to sit in class and feel like a failure. They live in a nice area taxes are a little higher but the schools are wonderful with many resources . The kids are nice and there are a lot of frum kids in the school .

amother

Natural

Fri, Nov 13 2015, 1:08 pm

For me a positive feeling about school and education is critical for every child. If yeshiva can't offer it then it isn't the best choice. Period. My son right now is in a Jewish school that is geared to help him with his learning disabilities. It's a Jewish school, but not so frum. It's not a school I would otherwise choose for my kids. But he is learning there and just as importantly he is happy there - making friends and having a positive experience. Priceless! (Actually it comes at a pretty high price). If this jewish school didn't exist I'd certainly send him to public school before I let him sit and suffer in a traditional Yeshiva that was ill-equipped to educate him properly.

FranticFrummie

Sat, Nov 14 2015, 11:08 am

This is a hot button issue for me. IMHO, Jewish schools in America have a LOT to answer for in the World to Come. Any kid who is out of the box is just kicked out, or totally ignored at best. There is no effort made whatsoever to get help for these kids. Gimme a break, at the cost of tuition, there should be a way to hire one aid who can do pull out and tutoring! Mad

My DD got bounced around a couple of Jewish schools, and flat out refused from another. She is not a bad kid, not disruptive, she just has some learning issues. Nobody could be bothered to help her catch up, so she started "checking out" in class and just daydreaming.

I finally got her in public school, where she got tons of extra attention, not only in academics, but in social skills and self esteem, too. There was a lot of damage to undo. It took all my energy to keep her engaged in Yiddishkeit, and to not hate Judaism because of her past experiences.

Middle school was a total nightmare, so I pulled her out to home school, and we made Aliyah for the express reason of getting her a proper education. For the 700 shekels ($200) a year she is finally getting a proper Jewish education, Hebrew tutoring, math tutoring, and other one on one services, while being mainstreamed with her peers. I only regret not being able to move earlier (but I guess we're all on Hashem's timeline.)

I don't know if I will ever stop being angry with the American Jewish school system. Besides DD, I know many other wonderful kids who have fallen by the wayside because they weren't "perfect and easy to teach". Teaching is hard, I get it, but that's what you get paid for!

ora_43

Sat, Nov 14 2015, 1:20 pm

Of course a school that can't help a child isn't the best choice for that child. If the kids are just sitting there not learning, they'd literally be better off with nothing. At least they'd enjoy watching TV at home. Plus, their parents would presumably have an extra several thousand dollars a year for things like extracurriculars and vacations.

I hope the school you work at has been very blunt with these parents about just how little the school can offer their kids.

BTW, I think the headline is misleading. It makes it sound like you're asking if the Jewishness of a school, in itself, can make it the wrong choice for some kids. My first thought was, "Well of course not, Jewish school isn't the right choice for most non-Jewish kids."

m in Israel

Sat, Nov 14 2015, 2:58 pm

Like Ora said, your title makes it sound like you are asking if there is something inherent about Jewish schools that may not be right for all children. What you are really asking is if it worth sending a child to a school that is not appropriate for them just so that they can be in a Jewish school -- a very different question.

I once discussed this problem with the Rosh Yeshiva of an American yeshiva, and he said that before one can be a properly functioning Jew they must be a properly functioning person! IOW, first a person must be physically, emotionally, and psychologically healthy, and then we can worry about them being healthy religiously. If what a child needs to be a functioning healthy person is not available in a Yeshiva but is available in a non-Jewish environment, there may be no choice but to place the child in the environment that will enable them to develop as a person, and then you will be able to also help them develop as a Torah Jew. OTOH if they are in an environment in which they are suffering because their basic needs cannot be met, it will be quite difficult, if not impossible, to meet their religious needs, so you may end up with neither.

Of course the ideal would be for the Jewish school/community to find a way to accommodate EVERY child -- but until that happens sometimes parents have to make difficult choices.

amother

Seafoam

Sat, Nov 14 2015, 8:20 pm

FranticFrummie wrote:

Gimme a break, at the cost of tuition, there should be a way to hire one aid who can do pull out and tutoring! Mad

My school has this, but it's not nearly enough for these children.
I would love to help these students more, but they literally need someone to sit with them holding their hand the entire time, and I simply can't do that, it would be unfair to the rest of the class.

Jeanette

Sat, Nov 14 2015, 8:52 pm

amother wrote:

In certain cities (and not only in NYC) the school district will pay for a one on one aide even for kids in private schools if that's what the child needs. Our children do qualify for special Ed services even if they're in yeshiva. See what you can get through your district before pulling the child out altogether. The BY I attended as a child was cross lots from a public school and I rememver some kids going there during the day for services.

imasinger

Sat, Nov 14 2015, 9:09 pm

amother wrote:

I have several "square peg" children.

What I love about our OOT community is that there is a sense of responsibility in the schools to accept any local child whose parents want them there, as long as the kids have safe behavior, towards themselves and towards their school community.

What I don't love, both as a parent, and as a morah, is the situation where either facet of the parent-school team fails to do its part.

The bolded bothers me. Why isn't the school making the necessary adjustments to handle these children? The public schools manage it because they have to. Dayschools should feel that they have to as well, and should have resources for students with special needs.

The other side of the equation is/are clueless parents. The ones who insist that there is nothing wrong with their child, and refuse to get an evaluation. The ones who don't respond to their child's struggles by either learning enough to help them, or hiring a tutor. The ones who don't use the resources available to them. (I have taken two of my children to the public school for therapeutic service, and that helped them function in dayschool).

Every Jewish child deserves a Jewish education. If a child truly can't handle adual language curriculum, even with help, then the school should be able to make modifications.

There are certainly extreme situations where public school is the answer.

But parents and schools should both be deeply committed to making that the last resort.

amother

Saddlebrown

Sun, Nov 15 2015, 12:30 am

What gets me is when schools refuse all external help... I know of a trained professional who wanted to volunteer time providing special services FOR FREE. IN A YESHIVA/DAY SCHOOL. No payment needed at all for therapies etc that could cost a school tons if they were forced to hire someone. No gimmicks. Just had time and wanted to offer the school this help.
The school said no. "Our school is full of perfect little angels with zero need for any special help". Give me a break.

5mom

Sun, Nov 15 2015, 12:47 am

imasinger wrote:

The bolded bothers me. Why isn't the school making the necessary adjustments to handle these children? The public schools manage it because they have to. Dayschools should feel that they have to as well, and should have resources for students with special needs.

Day schools should, but often can't. Extra help costs extra money. Public schools are required by law to give services, and tax dollars are allocated accordingly.

In the case of day schools, parents are struggling as it is with tuition. Adding to it is nearly impossible. I don't think the community is pretending that there are no kids in need of support, only that it's not in the budget.

notshanarishona

Sun, Nov 15 2015, 12:54 am

An only day school in a city is obligated to try and accommodate each child within reason. Weather hiring tutors, resource room, etc. Especially when talking about learning disabled vs. behavioral issues. When it comes to a point that it affects the other kids in the school then you ask a shaylah.

How dare a teacher refuse to try and teach the children who are slower? Part of a teachers job is to accomodate each child, all the more so in an OOT city with small classes.

If there are 1-2 children in each grade with LD , the school needs to hire help for those kids!
Why do people always look for the easy way out?

m in Israel

Sun, Nov 15 2015, 6:24 am

Merrymom wrote:

Rav Mizrachi gives a lecture on this topic. He says the money you save in all those years won't cover a month in rehab. Just something to think about as public school is not a good environment for a frum kid. Not to say that drugs cannot be found in frum schools but the incidence in a good yeshiva is much much lower.

I would venture to guess that a child with a LD whose needs are not being met in a yeshiva is probably at HIGHER risk for drug abuse than one in a good public school with an appropriate special ed program. Unaddressed learning disabilities puts a child at a much higher risk of "anti-social" behaviors, and of course at a much higher risk for going OTD. We are not talking about stam putting a frum kid in public school to save on tuition. We are talking about a frum kid who is not being properly accommodated in yeshiva. BIG DIFFERENCE.

imasinger

Sun, Nov 15 2015, 6:45 am

5mom wrote:

I am not sure whether to be amused or appalled at the lack of awareness. Try talking to an administrator in a public school system.

Folks, public schools are not made of money. They do not just "get tax dollars allocated accordingly." They struggle to figure out every dollar, just like day schools. And there's never enough. Their class sizes are often larger, and there are many more kids with issues. There are limits to how much people will pay in taxes to support schools, and many competing needs.

The big difference is that they are mandated to serve every child, so they HAVE to find a way.

When day schools and yeshivas have a similar attitude, things begin to change. There are community organizations that can help. There are parents in the system that can help. There is teacher training that can help. I have seen nissim once the commitment was made by the school.

And many times a one-on-on aide for a whole school day is neither necessary or sufficient.

OP, if you post on the specific issues you are seeing, either here or in the teacher's room on the board, you may get some good suggestions.