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What does "full tuition mean"
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amother
Khaki


 

Post Sat, Nov 14 2015, 7:14 pm
My DH had a discussion/debate with the executive director of a well know Brooklyn yeshiva that my son attends. The yeshiva officially charges (including registration fee and dinner fee) $11,500. We pay a total of $9000. The Ex D was arguing that the yeshiva needs $11,500 from parents who can afford it to compensate for the parents who can only pay a very minimal amount of tuition. My DH claimed that since the bottom line is that it doesn't actually cost more than $9000 to educate our son, and theoretically if everyone would pay $9000 the yeshiva would be able to meet all their bills, then in reality $9000 is FULL tuition. It obviously doesn't help compensate for the families that can only afford much less, but it is nevertheless full tuition and the yeshiva has no right characterizing our family as being on scholarship. Actually in the yeshivas letter about financial aid the wording they use says that if you can't pay full tuition the yeshiva will collect tzedakah on your behalf to make up the difference. Who is right?
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amother
Vermilion


 

Post Sat, Nov 14 2015, 7:32 pm
amother wrote:
My DH had a discussion/debate with the executive director of a well know Brooklyn yeshiva that my son attends. The yeshiva officially charges (including registration fee and dinner fee) $11,500. We pay a total of $9000. The Ex D was arguing that the yeshiva needs $11,500 from parents who can afford it to compensate for the parents who can only pay a very minimal amount of tuition. My DH claimed that since the bottom line is that it doesn't actually cost more than $9000 to educate our son, and theoretically if everyone would pay $9000 the yeshiva would be able to meuet all their bills, then in reality $9000 is FULL tuition. It obviously doesn't help compensate for the families that can only afford much less, but it is nevertheless full tuition and the yeshiva has no right characterizing our family as being on scholarship. Actually in the yeshivas letter about financial aid the wording they use says that if you can't pay full tuition the yeshiva will collect tzedakah on your behalf to make up the difference. Who is right?


The director is right. Your DH is wrong. Full tuition is the total obligation the yeshiva demand of the parents. Since you don't pay the total obligation even though it is to help others and not your son you are not paying full tuition.
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mille




 
 
    
 

Post Sat, Nov 14 2015, 10:22 pm
It's a private school. They can charge you whatever they want, and you don't have to pay it - private school is a luxury, not a necessity. Even though most Orthodox Jews have a hard time thinking of it that way. We have a "free" option, paid for out of our taxes - public school.

"Full tuition" is whatever they decide they will charge minus scholarships or any other reduction of tuition. If you aren't paying that amount, you are on scholarship.
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mirror




 
 
    
 

Post Sat, Nov 14 2015, 10:28 pm
It would seem to me that $9,000 would be the full tuition if everyone could afford to pay their share. I have heard the complaint from other people that it's unfair to those who can afford to pay full tuition to subsidize those who can't.

However, if you got a discounted tuition then you probably need it. Most schools require extensive forms that make you list your income, your assets, monthly expenses and vacations. It's very embarrassing.
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5mom




 
 
    
 

Post Sat, Nov 14 2015, 10:31 pm
You are covering the cost of your child's education, but you are not covering the school's cost of running a class. And that's how they figure tuition. So, no, you are not paying full tuition.
You can probably consider everything over 9k as maaser. It's not deductible from the perspective of the IRS, though.
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amother
Khaki


 

Post Sat, Nov 14 2015, 10:49 pm
5mom wrote:
You are covering the cost of your child's education, but you are not covering the school's cost of running a class. And that's how they figure tuition. So, no, you are not paying full tuition.
You can probably consider everything over 9k as maaser. It's not deductible from the perspective of the IRS, though.


op here. I very much am paying MY PORTION of the school's cost of running the class. I'm just not picking up the tab for others.
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amother
Lemon


 

Post Sat, Nov 14 2015, 10:58 pm
I agree with you OP. If the amount above 9000 is going to subsidize other kids- I think it's wrong even halachically I think it's problematic because they're basically forcing people to pay for other kids, and you can't force someone to do that. If they're using other money to subsidize the other students that's ok.
It's also wrong for the school to characterize it as tzedaka in their letter, because parents paying full tuition, which is covering some of the people who don't pay full tuition, are not paying tuition from tzedaka.
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amother
Tangerine


 

Post Sat, Nov 14 2015, 11:02 pm
5mom wrote:
You are covering the cost of your child's education, but you are not covering the school's cost of running a class. And that's how they figure tuition. So, no, you are not paying full tuition.
You can probably consider everything over 9k as maaser. It's not deductible from the perspective of the IRS, though.


You can use much more to pay tuition from maaser ask your LOR.
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seeker




 
 
    
 

Post Sat, Nov 14 2015, 11:10 pm
Sorry OP but the school gets to set the price of tuition. What it includes is not up to you. It's not a restaurant menu where you get to decide that you're willing to pay the cost of your child's teachers and books but not the colored paper that you feel is unnecessary, or not the contribution to the scholarship fund, or whatever. The school gets to decide what they want tuition to cover and what price they set for the parents, and that is "full tuition." Any discount or scholarship from that amount is exactly that - a discount/scholarship.
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amother
Turquoise


 

Post Sat, Nov 14 2015, 11:14 pm
All the schools do this.

It's upsetting when you find yourself falling into the category of, Able to pay the cost of your own kids, but not fully what the schools are asking, and you need to endure the embarrassment of applying for assistance.

And then this gets into the whole topic of, Rebbeim who get tuition breaks, and kollel families, etc. Note: I'm NOT taking a position on this, just pointing out that it's been discussed in other threads.
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amother
Khaki


 

Post Sat, Nov 14 2015, 11:15 pm
seeker wrote:
Sorry OP but the school gets to set the price of tuition. What it includes is not up to you. It's not a restaurant menu where you get to decide that you're willing to pay the cost of your child's teachers and books but not the colored paper that you feel is unnecessary, or not the contribution to the scholarship fund, or whatever. The school gets to decide what they want tuition to cover and what price they set for the parents, and that is "full tuition." Any discount or scholarship from that amount is exactly that - a discount/scholarship.



op again. I'm not disputing that the yeshiva gets to set the price of tuition. They are a private school and can charge whatever they want. I guess I just resent being told that the yeshiva will have to collect tzedakah on my behalf to cover the balance of the tuition that I'm not paying. That statement is simply factually untrue. The yeshiva does not have to raise one penny on my behalf.
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amother
Turquoise


 

Post Sat, Nov 14 2015, 11:21 pm
mille wrote:
It's a private school. They can charge you whatever they want, and you don't have to pay it - private school is a luxury, not a necessity. Even though most Orthodox Jews have a hard time thinking of it that way. We have a "free" option, paid for out of our taxes - public school.

"Full tuition" is whatever they decide they will charge minus scholarships or any other reduction of tuition. If you aren't paying that amount, you are on scholarship.


Many religious Jews feel that a yeshiva education for their kids is a necessity.

In Queens, the local rabbanim got together and requested that any family who gives more than $4,000 a year to tzedakah, should allocate the first $4,000 to the local elementary schools. And any family that gives less than $4,000 per year to tzedakah, should allocate half of their annual tzedakah contributions to the local elementary schools.
They set up a website: http://www.sosqueens.org/

Hopefully it'll help relieve the burden!
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5mom




 
 
    
 

Post Sat, Nov 14 2015, 11:34 pm
amother wrote:
op again. I'm not disputing that the yeshiva gets to set the price of tuition. They are a private school and can charge whatever they want. I guess I just resent being told that the yeshiva will have to collect tzedakah on my behalf to cover the balance of the tuition that I'm not paying. That statement is simply factually untrue. The yeshiva does not have to raise one penny on my behalf.


You're right, feel free to ignore that statement. If 9000 really covers every penny that your child uses, then they are not collecting for you personally. But they are collecting to make up the portion that you are not paying.
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DrMom




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Nov 15 2015, 1:05 am
amother wrote:
My DH had a discussion/debate with the executive director of a well know Brooklyn yeshiva that my son attends. The yeshiva officially charges (including registration fee and dinner fee) $11,500. We pay a total of $9000. The Ex D was arguing that the yeshiva needs $11,500 from parents who can afford it to compensate for the parents who can only pay a very minimal amount of tuition. My DH claimed that since the bottom line is that it doesn't actually cost more than $9000 to educate our son, and theoretically if everyone would pay $9000 the yeshiva would be able to meet all their bills, then in reality $9000 is FULL tuition. It obviously doesn't help compensate for the families that can only afford much less, but it is nevertheless full tuition and the yeshiva has no right characterizing our family as being on scholarship. Actually in the yeshivas letter about financial aid the wording they use says that if you can't pay full tuition the yeshiva will collect tzedakah on your behalf to make up the difference. Who is right?

If the yeshiva officially charges $11,500, then $11,500 = full tuition.

If you only pay $9000, then you don't pay full tuition.

What am I missing here? Scratching Head
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seeker




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Nov 15 2015, 1:17 am
DrMom wrote:
If the yeshiva officially charges $11,500, then $11,500 = full tuition.

If you only pay $9000, then you don't pay full tuition.

What am I missing here? Scratching Head

Apparently some administrator told OP (or her DH) that because they aren't paying full tuition, the admin needs to fundraise to cover their balance.
And OP's DH begs to differ because he says the amount he's paying is enough to cover his child, just not his contribution to the scholarships for kids who pay even less, so rather than guilting him by saying that they have to fundraise to cover his child, they should say they are fundraising to cover the educational costs of families who are paying even less. To the administrator, it doesn't make a difference because $2500 is $2500 and he needs to come up with it in any case. But OP and her DH are taking these semantics as a personal affront. I hear both sides but IMO it is so moot that if it were me I'd prefer to ignore the whole thing and not waste so much energy on it. You are not going to get any apology out of the admin, and even if you did it makes no practical difference to your life at this point.
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amother
Khaki


 

Post Sun, Nov 15 2015, 1:18 am
I guess your missing the part that is doesn't cost the yeshiva $11,500 to educate my child. The yeshiva charges above the actual cost to help pay for families in need that can't afford to cover their own cost and need others to help pay their tuition. The fact that I'm not paying someone else's tuition doesn't mean I'm not paying the real full tuition for my own child.
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amother
Gold


 

Post Sun, Nov 15 2015, 1:35 am
You are conflating "cost of education" and "tuition."

You are paying the cost of educating your child. However, full tuition is the official sticker price, and you are paying less than that amount. The fact that you are covering your child's costs does not mean that you are paying full tuition.
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DrMom




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Nov 15 2015, 1:37 am
amother wrote:
I guess your missing the part that is doesn't cost the yeshiva $11,500 to educate my child. The yeshiva charges above the actual cost to help pay for families in need that can't afford to cover their own cost and need others to help pay their tuition. The fact that I'm not paying someone else's tuition doesn't mean I'm not paying the real full tuition for my own child.

I didn't miss that part -- I just don't think it is relevant.

Tuition is what the school charges per student, regardless of how the funds are used.
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SRS




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Nov 15 2015, 2:31 am
While you do not pay full tuition, aka sticker price, the school is being hard headed. Every parent that pays the average cost of education per student should be thanked for doing their part. And all parents who pay full tuition, should be thanked profusely.

I think a lot of parents feel put out that their efforts to make average and full tuition payments are not appropriately recognized. There are no plaques. There are no banquets. There is not even a listing off full tuition paying parents.

So the executive director isn't being very smart to upset a parent that is pulling their own weight. Where tuition assistance is the rule, not the exception, administrators should be encouraging and thankful to the full payers and the high payers, encouraging them to keep on doing what they are doing to meet this burden.

Frankly, I'm a bit deflated. I went to an open house for the next school up and simply stated that although the program seemed interesting/improved enough, that the price tag that is nearly double what the average student pays, is really just beyond acceptable. I was told "apply for a scholarship." There is a small group of us that despise being beggars. Tuition needs to be brought into line. A $2500 difference between cost and tuition is not aggregious and this director should be encouraging of his parent body to try and tackle some of that difference. At many schools, the difference is in 5K, 6K, 7K, 8K range.
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DrMom




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Nov 15 2015, 4:50 am
SRS wrote:
Frankly, I'm a bit deflated. I went to an open house for the next school up and simply stated that although the program seemed interesting/improved enough, that the price tag that is nearly double what the average student pays, is really just beyond acceptable. I was told "apply for a scholarship." There is a small group of us that despise being beggars. Tuition needs to be brought into line. A $2500 difference between cost and tuition is not aggregious and this director should be encouraging of his parent body to try and tackle some of that difference. At many schools, the difference is in 5K, 6K, 7K, 8K range.


Not everyone can afford private schools.

SO there are several financial models for how to set tuition, based on which philosophy the school holds re: admitting those who cannot afford to pay full price.

- One theory is to admit everyone, and subsidize tuition for every single student who cannot afford to pay. In this model, the school jacks up the sticker price so that more well-off parents subsidize the costs for the others, who pay very little or even nothing. This model has the largest range of costs per parent.

- Another solution is to offer *no* tuition assistance. If you can't pay -- too bad! Most communities do not like this financial model because it excludes those in lower income brackets. In this model, everyone pays the same price.

- One modification is to set an lower limit on what each parent must pay, or to set a limit on how many students may receive tuition assistance.

In short, someone has to pay the piper!

Of course, you can also take the approach of paying teachers miserably low salaries, offering low benefits, etc. That makes school affordable for many more people, but then the quality of education tends to drop.
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