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-> Chinuch, Education & Schooling
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amother
Tangerine
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 Mon, Nov 16 2015, 2:48 pm
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My Ds is in 7th grade...bh he is a bright boy. He always has been an aleph student..until he started learning Gemorrah. He fails test after test. He does not get it. It is hard for him to pay attention in class. He does well in mostly every subject but cannot get this. He already has a tutor..four days a week but it's not helping him. I already spoke to his principal and he basically said my DS is lazy and immature and only gets motivated by candy which I don't believe to be true..he wants to do well, he is very down about this and doesn't want to go to school. A psychologist told me to have him tested for some language disorder bc I feel my so n is not a deep thinker and that's why it is so hard for him but I m just not sure..any ideas?
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November
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Mon, Nov 16 2015, 3:10 pm
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What does his tutor say about learning with your son? It's hard to understand that tutoring 4 times a week is not helpful. If your son isn't wanting to go to school, it sounds like it's time for a major meeting with principal, tutor, Rebbe to discuss options to help him.
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imasinger
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Mon, Nov 16 2015, 3:17 pm
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The first thing I'd look at is finding a different tutor. It doesn't sound like this one is a good fit.
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animeme
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Mon, Nov 16 2015, 4:25 pm
I would both change his tutor and get him evaluated for a learning disorder. I would also think about getting him a vision evaluation. Have him put his gemara on a shtender at 45 degrees and ask him if it's easier to read (this is an indicator of a vision issue).
It's not unusual for issues to go unnoticed until full-force gemara.
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bluebird
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Mon, Nov 16 2015, 5:05 pm
I'd get him evaluated.
Since he's already failing, would it be possible to pull him from gemara for now to relieve some of his stress? He could work with a tutor at that time.
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amother
Tangerine
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Mon, Nov 16 2015, 5:12 pm
| bluebird wrote: | I'd get him evaluated.
Since he's already failing, would it be possible to pull him from gemara for now to relieve some of his stress? He could work with a tutor at that time. |
Since he is not failing any other subject.exactly what area am I getting him evaluated in?...I cant exactly go to the BOE and say he is failing Gemorrah..THe only area he does majorly struggle in is writing..he cannot write for anything..creative thinking..Someone suggested a speech therapist evaluate him for language..is that what you have in mind?
I really appreciate the replies!
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animeme
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Mon, Nov 16 2015, 6:01 pm
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Find out who the psychologist recommends to evaluate hum, and talk to the school (is there a special services person?) And ask what they recommend. There may be a frum person in your community or nearby who does evals like this, and can translate what they see in gemara into language the Board of Ed understands (skills, cognition, etc).
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octopus
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Mon, Nov 16 2015, 6:05 pm
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Am I the only one who thinks it's bizarre to recommend an evaluation (a private one at that!) for a child that is struggling with a new subject in a foreign language and is doing just fine in everything else???? Look, I have zero experience in gemara learning, and I'm no expert of junior high, but I think that board of ed is a long shot, and a private eval for this is throwing out money.
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octopus
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Mon, Nov 16 2015, 6:08 pm
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and having a child evaluated for a language disorder doesn't mean "child has trouble learning different languages" it means having issues with grammar and semantics or expressing him/herself in the ENGLISH language.
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amother
Aubergine
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Mon, Nov 16 2015, 6:20 pm
not all tutors are created equal. You need to find one who works with a language based system.
If you live in Lakewood, I can give you some names.
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seeker
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Mon, Nov 16 2015, 6:45 pm
| octopus wrote: | | and having a child evaluated for a language disorder doesn't mean "child has trouble learning different languages" it means having issues with grammar and semantics or expressing him/herself in the ENGLISH language. |
Kids can have language/processing disorders that are just not obvious until they reach a certain point of challenge. for our kids that often happens at Gemara. Kids who are not challenged in this way may be sliding by ok and never flagged as having difficulty, but they may still be struggling beneath the surface, not realizing that learning isn't supposed to be that hard or that they're not getting the most out of it. OP mentions difficulties with writing too; again, writing is just about the most challenging subjects and can reveal weaknesses in kids who appear to be doing fine otherwise.
Not saying this is the case for OP's child but it is a possibility.
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seeker
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Mon, Nov 16 2015, 6:52 pm
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Severe writing difficulty would be enough to get you a DOE eval and there is no reason why not to - you could always go after that and have someone privately probe deeper, but IME their people do the basic testing well enough to get basic testing results which are a fine starting point and can save you at least that much on your private eval because you come with a head start. And they're required to do it in a timely manner, too.
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WhatFor
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Mon, Nov 16 2015, 7:00 pm
I've never studied gemara, so not sure what it's like, but does it require more mental processing than the subjects he does well in? I ask because there are many children who have learning/processing disorders, but the way our school system works, they're unfortunately able to compensate by memorizing (and they can have incredible memories) and then spitting back responses. (When I say "our school system" I mean the entire American school system- assuming you're here, that teaches for grades and not for learning.)
This could also be why English is difficult- if he has trouble in reading comprehension, it's more difficult to spit back the point of a story than the answer to 12*12.
It may be worthwhile getting him evaluated if you think this is a bigger issue than just gemara. Until you get to the root of the issue, the rabbaim need to lay off of him. Blaming him for something he's incapable of doing right now is a surefire way to make him passionately hate gemara. As it is, it seems like he's developing negative associations with not just gemara but with school altogether, which is very sad. The ability to learn Gemara is not the be-all-end-all of being a Jew, and it's so sad when a boy feels that he may as well not go learn anything at all if he can't be an aleph in gemara. I'm certainly not saying that you should give up on his learning gemara, but I hope someone gets the message to him that there are all kind of great people in the world, and not all of them are shteiging at gemara. He has what to offer the world whether it's gemara or in another area.
(This was not directed at you, at all, OP, but rather toward an unfortunate prevailing attitude in a lot of schools where boys can wind up feeling like dirt if they're not good at one subject.)
Also, from this point forward, I hope whoever teaches him gemara does it with a focus on making it an ultra positive experience. It may take a bit to undo the negative associations he has.
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amother
Coral
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Mon, Nov 16 2015, 7:15 pm
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how is his kriah? My dh says that if a boy doesn't have good kriah skills then he wont be able to learn well.
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amother
Coffee
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Mon, Nov 16 2015, 7:41 pm
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I'd have another talk with the principal. The things he said about your son are pretty harsh. If that's truly what he believes, I'd start to wonder if this is the right school for your ds.
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5mom
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Mon, Nov 16 2015, 8:53 pm
If he has trouble with writing and gemara and is not a deep thinker, he may have trouble with abstract thinking in general. Some kids pick it up later, some don't. Is there a way to measure that skill?
If he's not up to abstract thinking, then he's just not ready for gemara. The mishna recommends starting at 15. Modern schools like to start much earlier, but not every child is ready at 9 or 12. What was your husband like? Are you an abstract thinker? What kind of conversations do you have around the shabbos table?
I would find a more sympathetic school. A boy who feels like an educational and religious failure is not developing warm feelings for religious life.
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bluebird
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Mon, Nov 16 2015, 9:03 pm
| amother wrote: | Since he is not failing any other subject.exactly what area am I getting him evaluated in?...I cant exactly go to the BOE and say he is failing Gemorrah..THe only area he does majorly struggle in is writing..he cannot write for anything..creative thinking..Someone suggested a speech therapist evaluate him for language..is that what you have in mind?
I really appreciate the replies! |
Yup.
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5*Mom
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Mon, Nov 16 2015, 10:45 pm
I am in a hurry so haven't read the whole thread (apologies) but
THE HIGHER ORDER COGNITIVE PROCESSES REQUIRED FOR GEMARA LEARNING ARE NOT YET DEVELOPED AT 12/13 AND THIS IS NORMAL. WE START TEACHING GEMARA WAAAAAY TOO EARLY and create pathology where there is none and feelings of failure in otherwise bright and capable children. Is there a chance that your son has an as-yet-undetected learning disorder? Maybe, but it's a really small chance.
I'll try to post more later.
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chani8
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Mon, Nov 16 2015, 10:56 pm
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A principal that calls a 7th grader lazy and immature does not understand child psychology and if that is the general mentality in the school, to think kids who struggle with learning are just being lazy and immature, I'd get my kid out of there.
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amother
Orange
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Tue, Nov 17 2015, 12:38 am
Please have him evaluated. Please take care of this issue now, before it has more serious ramifications on his self-esteem and success in school.
My son had a vision problem - his eyes did not work together, and when he read he would skip a letter every so often. He is very bright and loves to read, so this issue presented ONLY in Gemara class, where there's a lot of small print and the difference in one letter is very important.
And his teachers and the principal called him lazy and unmotivated, when really he was struggling in this area.
The good news is that this issue can be remedied with eye exercises. The test is called a binocular vision test.
Whatever happens, believe in your son! Tell him that you know he'll get through this and together you'll figure it out. Keep telling him that he is a valuable person and that you love him.
You should have much hatzlacha and nachas!
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