Do you have a close relative who is OTD?

PinkFridge

Wed, Nov 18 2015, 8:34 pm

amother wrote:

My first cousin is otd. We are a very close extended family. And he is the first person in the recorded history of our family on either side (we can trace our yichus all the way back) who is not shomer Shabbos.

We all love him and support him. The only person who doesn't know his religious level is my 90 year old grandmother. He always puts a yarmulke on when he goes to visit her. Which he does often cuz he's a sweety. It would be too much for her to handle, and he knows that. So he hides his cell phone if he visits on Shabbos etc.
He works in the family business with everyone, he comes to Shabbos meals when he's not busy, we all like his band page on Facebook Smile

.

Oh we are a Chabad family. (Gezhe for those who know and care, I certainly don't).

I could never ever ever ever imagine davening for him to die. Even my uncle who struggled with this tremendously loves his son enormously and can see his kindness and goodness even with his jewfro his ripped jeans and his lack of Tzitzit yarmulke beard etc.. All things important to my uncle.

The whole family is on a mission to set him up with a nice girl who is very similar to him. (He wants this- I've discussed it with him.) I personally think he is still young and immature. (Low twenties).

Anyway, I currently now live in a different continent to him so my only contact is via Facebook.
It was definitely not an easy thing for my family to accept, but he's family so you always accept and support and love them. That's what family means (in our family anyway).

I know I am not a sibling so maybe there are some deep dark secrets I don't know.

Hats off (figuratively of course) to you and your whole family.
As far as setting him up, as long as he's not involved in any self-destructive behavior.

zaq

Wed, Nov 18 2015, 9:49 pm

shoshana2 wrote:

Why would you say that I was equating being welcome at a table to praying for someone's death? I never said any such thing - putting words into someone's mouth is not the sole property of poets and polatitians.

YOU are putting words in MY mouth, dear. I never said any such thing. On the contrary, I said quite plainly that there was a difference between the two. Although you did seem to imply that you were in sympathy with the idea of a parent's utterly rejecting a child who is OTD. I am not so sure that Rav Schwab would really have done so. I believe he was making a point, the same way that the whole inyan of Ben Sorrer uMoreh is in the Torah to make a point. The parameters of ben sorrer umoreh are so specific and narrow that it is virtually impossible to come to fruition and in fact there never was such an episode and was never expected to be. It's there as a cautionary tale, to remind parents of their responsibility to bring up their children properly and keep them on the right track. Scare tactics, if you will, to show them what the awful consequences can be if parents abdicate their responsibility. And I think the rav was using similar, if milder, scare tactics to warn his children that there would be terrible consequences if they went OTD.

Of course, we don't even know what the rav meant by abandoning "derech hayosher". Giving up Shabbos and kashrus? Marrying out? Becoming Wiccan? Enrolling in YU?

amother

Orchid

Wed, Nov 18 2015, 10:39 pm

amother wrote:

Amothers black, I would love to talk to u. My hub is also OTD. I found out before the chagim, and I'm still struggling to come to terms with it. I have times when I accept it so nicely, other times I cry myself out , and I'm down for days. We have a great marriage, we love each other to pieces, still it's so hard.

I'm the op of just discovered DH is OTD, I'm beyond shattered. I don't know how to link the thread.

U think we can communicate in person? I mean by phone? Only if ur fine with it, of course.

Thanks!

I have been wondering about you for some time. As a mother of an OTD I can SOMEWHAT relate to your pain....Be gentle with yourself......Don't be upset with yourself for being down....It is so normal. Give yourself time to grieve. I have a relative whose husband went OTD .She is still married and chasidish....If you feel it can be helpful to talk with someone like her let me know. I can try to work it out anonymously.HUgs...wish I can support you personally.

amother

Black

Thu, Nov 19 2015, 1:58 pm

amother wrote:

Hi! Our situations are very different. My heart goes out to you. You were betrayed. You were not given a choice here. I knew from when we were dating and consciously decided to marry him so it was open and honest. Everything was expected for me.
However we can still talk logistics like how we keep a spiritual home and make sure our kids feel like they belong and don't have a dark secret. How to really respect someone with different beliefs. Is there a way we can pm?

amother

Black

Thu, Nov 19 2015, 2:06 pm

amother wrote:

I just read your OP of the thread. I didn't read any responses so forgive if Im missing important details. I think its important to say that your dh sounds like a real mentch who loves and respects you and that's something special to hold on to. You can make it work. You can have a beautiful relationship and love him so much for who he is. He'll never forget it.

thunderstorm

Thu, Nov 19 2015, 2:10 pm

Pink , in response to your question: What do you think brought them back?

Our family never rejected any of my siblings for being OTD....they were rebelling because they were broken, my parents divorced and they felt very unloved by everyone, thye tried to experience the "other side" they were not frum at all, eating treif, mechalel shabbos etc....but they knew that we love them no matter how religious they are. They realized that the life they were leading was empty and realized there's purpose in being a frum person....serving Hashem...once the developed their positive outlook towards themselves they were able to come back...each to his own level...but I still love them the same OTD or Frum...

smilingmom

Thu, Nov 19 2015, 3:27 pm

shoshana2 wrote:

My former husband went OTD - he did this at age 40.
Smilingmom, In what way is somone who goes off a different breed than a teenager? I tend to agree with that statement.

I agree that an adult can make an 'informed' decision to be non-observant that is different than that of a teenager.
An adult can see 'hypocrisy' in Judaism or any religion and choose to be agnostic or atheistic.

When an adult or teenager wants to throw off the shackles of rules and regulations, they often throw off all the shackles, because they want to experience full freedom. It is often not an intellectual choice, but rather the idea of 'the grass is greener on the other side'. They may still be spiritual and religious, e.g. 'cardiac Jews'.

There are also all those people who we force out of our groups, people on the fringe emotionally or intellectually, that we do not tolerate and accept. The person who will never be an iluy or the socially awkward child, who will never feel like they belong. They may go and search for people that will befriend them, they will find them at parks, clubs and beach parties.

The point is that if we do not chase any of these people away, and see their goodness and their great qualities, and befriend them, we would all be better off. We should not do that so that they would return, but because we love them.

amother

Papaya

Thu, Nov 19 2015, 5:12 pm

My brother is completely not frum at the moment. We are a large, loving, Chabad family, parents and most of the siblings shluchim. (I'm not firebricks cousin)

My brother has a great relationship with all of his siblings and is welcome in any of our homes. He has a good relationship with my parents.

Like firebrick's family we are constantly trying to set him up with suitable young women. I honestly think the only reason my brother would marry a Jewish girl is because he knows that is something we won't accept. But I don't think he feels any ideological need to marry someone Jewish. He has dated/lived with non Jews.

I don'[t think he suffered any terrible traumas, although he did have some horrible teachers who treated him unfairly in yeshiva.

amother

Silver

Thu, Nov 19 2015, 10:01 pm

amother wrote:

Thanks for ur kind words! I know it's normal to grieve, but how long? Don't get me wrong, most days I'm fine bh. Just here and there I break down , I cry , I'm depressed....

I would love to talk to ur relative if possible. I'm actually looking to talk to ppl that are in the same boat as I am. How can we communicate?

Hugs to u too!!! U seem like a special person! I'm sorry for ur situation.

amother

Silver

Thu, Nov 19 2015, 10:08 pm

amother wrote:

U got it right. Exactly what u wrote!! He is a real mench , and we respect each other. I will make our marriage work. No question about it.

It's very hard though. Very very disappointing. I didn't dream under my chuppa that my life will turn out this way. Oh well.......

amother

Orchid

Thu, Nov 19 2015, 10:26 pm

amother

Silver

Thu, Nov 19 2015, 11:58 pm

amother wrote:

Thanks! I will contact this email soon.

imasoftov

Sun, Nov 22 2015, 5:35 am

amother wrote:

You've got something written that would tell you this?
How far back is "all the way"?

amother

Firebrick

Sun, Nov 22 2015, 11:30 am

imasoftov wrote:

You've got something written that would tell you this?
How far back is "all the way"?

Well we have documented all the way back to chassidim of the alter rebbe.

And it's not that I am bragging. Honestly I don't think it's a big deal at all.

I am just trying to explain how big of deal my cousin going otd was particularly to my uncle. Who spoke about his grandfather coming to America at the turn of the century when majority of Jews assimilated and managed to raise all his children and grandchildren as frum Yiddin.

amother

Oak

Sun, Nov 22 2015, 11:52 am

My brother is OTD. He is in his early twenties. Honestly it doesn't really make me sad because I can't imagine him being frum, as far back as I can remember he hasn't fit in with the system, and I don't see how he can. I would like him to be a nicer person and treat my mother and younger siblings better though. That's much more important and realistic in my mind.