I am LIVID! | Imamother

amother

Maroon

Tue, Nov 17 2015, 10:12 pm

Ok- please talk me down because I am at appoint where I want to call every Judaic administrator at my teen ds's school and give them a piece of my mind.
This morning we got an email from the community list asking if there were men or boys available to help make a minyan at a burial. I promptly texted my teen ds as he had just left for school. He has helped make a minyan (sadly) for this kind of thing before. When he came home from school today I asked him how it was etc. I reinforced what a wonderful thing he did. I could sense he was disappointed because he missed shiur. I asked why- he did this great chesed shel emes mitzvah. His response was, well I could have gotten someone else to go and then I wouldn't have missed shiur. because learning comes before everything- I responded back with derech eretz kadma latorah. Then he told me the school principal said to him well really he should have asked a shailah if he was allowed to leave his learning to do this mityzvah( I don't mean permission to leave school grounds etc. I had already ok'd it with the school) I mean sorry you have to ask a shailah before going to a mitzvah if you are learning- whaaaaaaaaat! First, don't tell my son after I told him about this opportunity to ask a shaileh, 2) Are you serious, give up the opportunity to do a mitzvah so you can sit and learn all day. what is the point of learning all day if you are not going to do anything hashem is asking you to do- I don't get it. I am not raising my child to be a selfish person- me me me me, this will cut into my beis medrash time. someone is sick in the hospital - bikur cholim opportunity, nope sorry I have sit and learn. Someone needs tutoring nope sorry I have to sit and learn. etc. Is this what hashem wants from us? This is not the message I want my kid to have. Now he is going to think twice before he goes out and does something good. sooooooo angry. I asked him if he saw someone hurt and he was in the middle of a daf and there was someone else walking by would he not get up as well to help? The answer was, well really if someone else can do it then I should not interrupt my learning. You know why this poor soul could not get a minyan?? I guess too many people were sitting and learning!
sooo angry!!!!! ahhhhhhhhh!!!!
I reminded ds the story of the baal hatanyah reprimanding his grandson the tzemach tzedek for being so immersed in Torah and not realizing the baby was crying.. even the baal hatanyah got up from his learning!
When I told this story to dh I could hear him saying finally she gets it because he has been tellinmg me that the school is like this all along and I did notice it, but I didn't think it was so pervasive.
Thanks for letting me shout- I think I can hold off until tomorrow to call the principal- so not what I want to do.

amother

Maroon

Tue, Nov 17 2015, 10:29 pm

busymom wrote:

By all means, call the principal BUT I really don't think you'll have a productive conversation when your livid. You need to be able to present the above calmly for your words to have an effect. Otherwise, he'll just be defensive and not really hear what you're saying. I'd wait until I'm not emotional anymore and then make the call.

Hopefully by tomorrow I will be sane and rational enough to have a coherent conversation- I just feel like we are on 2 different worlds with our philosophy, but he is messing with my son's brain and our hashkafa.

Dolly Welsh

Tue, Nov 17 2015, 10:30 pm

It is to discuss, an interesting and important question. It is too subtle for me.

Livid? OP, no. It's a learning opportunity.

This is not a cut-and-dried situation. Only his teachers can know what a young guy should do, based on his learning at the moment, if others are available. You are making it simple and it isn't simple. Every case is different.

You have told him the angle that service to others is the first point. Now be the sweet mommy a man swears by, and whose soft voice is in his head even late in life, counseling good middos.

Don't be so livid. That won't stick in his head as well.

There, there. I know what you mean. Let the Rav do his job.

Last edited by Dolly Welsh on Tue, Nov 17 2015, 10:31 pm; edited 1 time in total

amother

Maroon

Tue, Nov 17 2015, 10:33 pm

amother wrote:

If they sent out a text then probably they ended up with more than a minyan.

I would want my son to participate in such a mitzvah if he were needed. I would not want him to give up his learning if they had enough people. And yes, if he was unsure then I would want him to ask his rosh yeshiva for advice.

Your son sounds like a good person. Trying to do the right thing and being respectful. You should have lots of nachas!

They actually only had a minyan because my son was going and told the school asst. principal about it who had permission to send some other boys. Aside fromn the rav officiating these boys were the minyan. The school knew this before sending the boys. The boys also carried the meis from the limo to the grave. So sad.....

and thank you!

amother

Maroon

Tue, Nov 17 2015, 10:36 pm

flmommy wrote:

I totally hear what you are saying but in the schools defense what if the boys are needed for a mitzvah every day? That would really cut into their learning. If it's a rare occurance I am totally with you.

I totally hear what you are saying about cutting into school, but the message my son heard was if someone else can do a mitzvah and not because you are learning(not just school time here, let's say after school and you have a chavrusa or something) you let someone else do it. I was taught when there is a mitzvah opportunity run to it.

amother

Maroon

Tue, Nov 17 2015, 10:41 pm

Thanks Dolly for your point of you, but I am not so share I would put all my eggs in one basket and trust that the rebbi makes all the decisions in ds's life. I feel there something innate that hashem has given women to teach our children how to be a metnsch and feel I can't just let someone else take that job from me. No one is going to look at my son and say wow- that boy is incredible, or who is that brat and who is his rebbi- they are going to say who are his parents. I don't want to add another selfish person to the world.

goodmorning

Tue, Nov 17 2015, 10:51 pm

OP, maybe show these sources to your son? They discuss how if an meis does not have his "needs met," we are mevatel talmud Torah to escort him. Who is considered someone who does not have "his needs met" is a source of halachic controversy, but I'm pretty sure that someone who does not have a minyan is pretty obviously in that category.

Megillah 3b: מבטלין תלמוד תורה להוצאת מת

Megillah 29a: מבטלין ת"ת להוצאת המת ולהכנסת הכלה אמרו עליו על ר' יהודה בר' אילעאי שהיה מבטל ת"ת להוצאת המת ולהכנסת הכלה בד"א בשאין שם כל צורכו אבל יש שם כל צורכו אין מבטלין

Kesuvos 17a: אמרו עליו על רבי יהודה ברבי אלעאי שהיה מבטל תלמוד תורה להוצאת המת ולהכנסת כלה במה דברים אמורים כשאין עמו כל צרכו אבל יש עמו כל צרכו אין מבטלין

Rambam Hilchos Avel 14:9 מבטלין תלמוד תורה להוצאת המת ולהכנסת הכלה במה דברים אמורים בשאין לו כל צרכו אבל יש לו כל צרכו אין מבטלין וכל שאין מתעסקין בתורה חייבין להתעסק עמו.

Shulchan Aruch YD 361: לְמָאן דְּמַתְנֵי לַאֲחֵרִים, אֵין לוֹ שִׁעוּר, אֲפִלּוּ יֵשׁ עִמּוֹ כַּמָּה אֲלָפִים מִתְבַּטֵּל בִּשְׁבִילוֹ. לְמָאן דְּקָרֵי וְתָנֵי, דְּהַיְנוּ שֶׁקָּרָא וְשָׁנָה וַעֲדַיִן לֹא שָׁנָה לַתַּלְמִידִים, אִם יֵשׁ ס' רִבּוֹא אֵין צָרִיךְ לְהִתְבַּטֵּל בִּשְׁבִילוֹ. לְמָאן דְּלֹא קָרֵי וְתָנֵי, כֵּיוָן שֶׁיֵּשׁ לוֹ מִי שֶׁיִּתְעַסֵק עִמּוֹ אֵין צָרִיךְ לְהִתְבַּטֵּל בִּשְׁבִילוֹ, וְהוּא שֶׁיֵּשׁ שָׁם עֲשָׂרָה. וְיֵשׁ אוֹמְרִים דְּעַכְשָׁיו מִן הַסְּתָם מְבַטְּלִין, שֶׁאֵין לְךָ אֶחָד מִיִּשְׂרָאֵל בַּזְּמַן הַזֶּה שֶׁאֵינוֹ בַּמִּקְרָא אוֹ בַּמִּשְׁנָה. (בֵּית יוֹסֵף בְּשֵׁם הריטב''א פ''ב דִּכְתֻבּוֹת שכ''כ בְּשֵׁם סמ''ג)

amother

Purple

Tue, Nov 17 2015, 11:38 pm

Actually OP, I think you are very mistaken

The halacha is that one is only mevatel his Torah learning to do a mitzvah no one else is available to do.

so the in the son of the baal hatanyah's case, he should have taken care of the baby because no one else was around. He did not have to go babysit instead of his equally available and willing sister.

or, if your presence would mean something to the sick person, then certainly he should be mevatel his Torah, but not if the choleh doesn't care who comes. As long as someone else is going he is not needed and he should learn.

If he is part of a family, no one else can fill his role and thus he should for example go to family events as HE himself adds to the simcha

I find it interesting (and possible not so intellectually honest) that you think its selfish for your son to go learn and not selfish for your husband to go to work.

Learning is not a hobby, its a responsibility Jewish men have.

Your sons principal was simply pointing that out. Take a chill.

5mom

Tue, Nov 17 2015, 11:52 pm

Of course we want to raise boys who respond to the needs of others and don't use learning as an excuse to avoid social and communal responsibility.

So the school should send them to make a minyan for a funeral when needed.

But they are kids, and their job now is to be in school. It would also be a mitzvah for the Rebbe to go to the funeral rather than teach, but he doesn't, because that would disrupt everyone's schedules.

What I'm trying to say is that it's a question of balance and priorities. If you think that the boys aren't getting the message, say so. But if you call the administration and tell them that they must allocate mitzvah time every day, I imagine that they will tell you that they are trying to run a school. And they are right.

Maybe this is one of those lessons that has to come from the home.

treestump

Wed, Nov 18 2015, 12:56 am

V'salmud Torah k'neged kulam.

Don't recall the exact sources, but we learned in HS by Pirkei Avos about a man who, in the time that he had intended to learn Torah, had to save someone's life. The meforash (sorry, don't know which) explains that yes, he was obligated to save the person's life, but had he been learning Torah then, his zchus would have been much greater.

Yes, we were all LIVID and shouted the teacher down the entire period. But that was because we didn't grasp, because it is impossible to grasp, the greatness of learning Torah. The fact that when someone learns Torah, he literally upholds the entire world. That in his merit people are being sustained and vitalized. (Again, all this is sourced but don't have them on me.)

And guess what? "what is the point of learning all day if you are not going to do anything hashem is asking you to do"- Hashem wants your son to learn. Yomom v'layla it says. The Torah is Hashem's will itself. Obviously, when one is the only one to do a mitzvah that must be done, he should do it and rejoice at the opportunity. But when others can do it, then yes, he should be learning.

It has nothing to do with 'him'. It has nothing to do with 'his learning' being 'selfish' and 'cutting into my beis medrash time.' Learning Torah should have nothing to do with one's ego, accomplishments, etc. It has everything to do with doing Ratzon Hashem, which obviously we can't decide what it is even when something feels good or sounds loftier, if it runs contrary to what Torah Shebeksav, the ultimate Will of Gd, and its interpretation, the Torah Shebaal Peh, states.

amother

Orange

Wed, Nov 18 2015, 1:36 am

amother wrote:

OP, I hear you.

I come from the world where men will let their children go hungry (not just go on benefits, literally go hungry) rather than leave the Beis Medresh to get a job. Where men will knowingly let a funeral take place without a minyan because they don't want to skip shiur. Where women are encouraged to /not/ seek out urgent medical care, because it will mean calling their husbands home early from Night Seder.

I hear you. I hear that you are worried about the path your son will walk down... and I know that it is nebuch a valid concern.

Honestly, the only thing that I can tell you is to leave. Just walk away. Send your son to a school where the administration gives Chessed Shel Emes the same sanctity that Hashem gave it in the Torah. It sounds as if your husband would be on board.

Anyone who tells you otherwise is either brainwashed, or doesn't understand that schools really do teach their buchrim that their Torah studies come before seeing their own children go to sleep with full stomachs.

OMG!!! This makes me livid!! Hungry kids??? I hope this is an exaggeration :-(

Last edited by amother on Wed, Mar 13 2019, 4:23 pm; edited 1 time in total

DrMom

Wed, Nov 18 2015, 4:25 am

I don't really see why you are reacting so strongly.

Your son's teachers want him to learn. It's probably a pain for them to give extra help to boys who miss class. Plus, they see their work as important. Okay -- I see their perspective.

You and your son decided that making a minyan trumped learning for one day, and you encouraged him to miss shiur. That's a valid choice, but your son's teacher disagreed. So what?

Obviously, you can see from their perspective that if every boy dropped class every time there was another mitzvah to do, they'd be out of a job.

Let it go.

cinnamon

Wed, Nov 18 2015, 5:07 am

amother wrote:

This deserves more than a like.