Which child's "side" do I take?!!?

harriet

Wed, Nov 18 2015, 11:03 am

so. . . here's the situation-DD is 14 and goes to BY, is not rebellious at all, considers herself I guess openminded yeshivish.

DS is 12, goes to the "brother school" that DD attends and is super intense and yeshivish.

DS has sensitivities that impact other members of the family and I don't know what to enforce. The latest is music. We listen to the maccabeats as well as to random contestants on America's Got Talent (or the like) singing random (non Jewish obviously) songs. The latest is the boy and girl pair from somewhere in Asia, they are amazing and are around 8-11 years old.

DS objects to music that is not very "yeshivish" and/or that is a girl singing. In the AGT version, the girl is about 7 years old.

DD wants to listen to the music, DS insists she not listen when he's around, who do I support? I happen to agree with DD (that these are not really issues) but respect that he wants to uphold certain ideals that he has. Do I tell him he can't impose his stringencies on others and he has to leave if he doesn't like it or ask her not to listen to it?

They are both really mad and frustrated with each other.

Any input appreciated.

Ema of 5

Wed, Nov 18 2015, 11:15 am

Why not collectively come up with a list of music that is acceptable to everyone, and THAT can be played in the common/shared areas of the house. Other music can be listened to in private- bedroom, headphones, etc.
HOWEVER you and your husband need to determine where YOU GUYS fall on the kol isha spectrum. Once you have that figured out, someone needs to explain hat to your son. It also needs to be made clear to him that if HE doesn't want to listen to something, he can't just insist that it be turned off. He can request nicely, walk out, get head phones, etc. Also, once he has a clear understanding of where your family stands, it will need to be explained that anything above and beyond that is a chimes which he cannot impose on others.

harriet

Wed, Nov 18 2015, 11:15 am

amother wrote:

Buy him earplugs.

I will offer him that but I don't think he'll be happy with that (because he's been putting on a headset with music he does deem appropriate whenever she puts on hers but he says it's a pain the neck to keep having to do that, which I hear)

Chayalle

Wed, Nov 18 2015, 11:20 am

eema of 3 wrote:

HOWEVER you and your husband need to determine where YOU GUYS fall on the kol isha spectrum.

This.

Also something to consider: You are sending your son to a yeshivish school, and he wants to adhere to the chinuch that you are giving him. What do the mainstream yeshivish Rabbanim say regarding Kol Isha in a 7-year-old? That may be a question to consider or ask your LOR. At what age does it start?

Then explain your position (whether to DD or to DS) and follow thru.

harriet

Wed, Nov 18 2015, 11:24 am

My DH and I are fine with an 11 year old boy listening to a 7 year old girl sing.
That's why I said it's his "sensitivity"
He also doesn't want to go swimming with his 5 year old girl cousin who is wearing an aqua modesta, which my DH and I think is fine. . . he has looooots of sensitivities. . .

yo'ma

Wed, Nov 18 2015, 11:25 am

I don't understand. He doesn't want to listen to music that your dd listens to? If so, don't get him earplugs, get her headphones. When my kids listen to music that I don't approve of, pick your battles Wink

, I tell them to use headphones because not everyone has to listen to what they're listening to and I don't want them to.

harriet

Wed, Nov 18 2015, 11:31 am

yo'ma wrote:

, I tell them to use headphones because not everyone has to listen to what they're listening to and I don't want them to.

he's the only one that doesn't want to listen to it, DD and whoever else is around does want to listen to it so the headphones would have to work for several people. . .

amother

Powderblue

Wed, Nov 18 2015, 11:38 am

Even absent any religious conflict if one child wants music on and the other finds it annoying I would tell the child who wants it on to use headphones.

You state your DS goes a related school of your DD but give no details about it's haskafos and rules so I don't know if the rest of what I'm writing has any relevance.

If you chose to send your child to a school that has certain standards about music or such issues you must provide them a home that follow those standards.

I personally am having a major issue with my son because of all his all classmates parents who LIED on the school application saying their children don't have movies, internet access etc. but really do and talk about it frequently.

animeme

Wed, Nov 18 2015, 11:46 am

In our house, we believe that sound is something you can't get away from, and you should respect that. Only music and sound levels everyone agrees with gets played out loud. For anything else, there are headphones.

If you are in the car, aka a place where everyone is stuck and can't leave, I'd play music everyone agrees to. If not, telling him "You can leave the room" or "leave the conversation", which is basically what you say when you tell him to use earplugs, can be hurtful. Please find out what he is being taught in yeshiva, and consider sitting down with your family's rav together with ds to discuss this.

You're effectively dealing with post Eretz Yisrael gap year issues but with a 12 year old. His young age doesn't change the fact that he truly feels he is being forced to do something wrong, but it does change how he deals with that. He is not ready to say, "OK, I do things differently than my family so I have to deal with the consequences." And he is also likely confused as to why his sister is doing something that he figures she is being taught not o (secular music), since that's what he's being taught. An outside-the-family perspective could be useful.

Chayalle

Wed, Nov 18 2015, 11:48 am

amother wrote:

If you chose to send your child to a school that has certain standards about music or such issues you must provide them a home that follow those standards

Exactly.

You and your DH are fine with alot of things, but is the school you send him to on the same page as you? Where is he getting this "sensitivity" from?

saw50st8

Wed, Nov 18 2015, 12:21 pm

I don't think it's fair for your son to impose on the rest of the family for his own sensitivities. It sounds like everyone wants to listen to the music but him. Therefore, he should leave the room when the music is on.

If it were just your DD vs DS, I would say she should wear headphones.

It sounds like this is likely going to be a battle with many other things going forward. It's very challenging having one family member imposing on others. What happens when he doesn't want pictures of women in the house? Are you going to get rid of Little House on the Prarie even if your other kids want to read them? Etc, etc, etc.

MiracleMama

Wed, Nov 18 2015, 12:25 pm

I don't see why she can't listen at a reasonable decibel in her own room or else use headphones.
I mean, if someone was going to play music that was going to annoy me, regardless of religious reason or I just don't like it, I'd like them to respect me enough to keep it down or choose something else.

smss

Wed, Nov 18 2015, 12:29 pm

Speaking as the child in my family with the most "sensitivities", I say he needs to leave the room if it bothers him.

It's important for him to learn that he shouldn't use frumkeit to ostracize people.

observer

Wed, Nov 18 2015, 12:30 pm

To your son's defense.... for whatever reason, he has decided to adhere to these extra sensitivities. They are not at all radical or super extreme. In many circles, boys that age don't listen to girls singing or go swimming with girls other than sisters, even if they are covered.

Home should be a safe haven for him. He should be able to go home and chill and be himself. On the other hand, same for your dd. She has options of going to her room and listening or using headphones. I don't think it's fair to cause everyone in the house to hear it, if ds is uncomfortable with it.

May you see a lot of nachas from them all!

Scrabble123

Wed, Nov 18 2015, 12:36 pm

Your title is pretty irrelevant here. You seem to have already taken a side (your DDs), but are unsure of how to enforce that. Regardless, parent's don't, "take sides." Parents should try to instill healthy senses of decision making, validation, sensitivity, understanding, compromise, etc. in their children. Anyways, your DS is a child, and generally adults do not need to change acceptable standards for their children, but you should respect him and validate his concerns. Talk to him about how you respect his desire to be more stringent, but how it is not something your entire family is ready to take on. Make sure he understands he still needs to respect you (as in not rip up your newspaper because there is a picture of a woman on it), and that you need to respect him too. Maybe buy some yeshivish music to play as well, and encourage him to study or become busy with something else when you're all enjoying the AGT music. The same goes for the swimming: he does not have to swim, but if you can provide him with male only swimming it would be very nice and caring. He may "outgrow" this stage or he may not (and he may become even more right wing), but there has to be a back and forth circle of respect.

5mom

Wed, Nov 18 2015, 12:48 pm

If someone has sensitivities that go beyond halacha, it's unreasonable of him to impose those sensitivities on others. Not to .mention that his sister can listen to girls singing. Why should she be limited here?

It's nice to find common ground, but if you can't, the public areas of the house are not his to control. If this is about not wanting to hear music, he'll go to his room. If it's about wanting to control the environment, there's something bigger going on.

Ema of 5

Wed, Nov 18 2015, 12:53 pm

MiracleMama wrote:

Because it's not only her!!! OP said everyone in the family likes or wants to listen to whatever is on EXCEPT the son. If it was just that one person wanted to listen and one didn't, then yea, she could go into her room or whatever.

MiracleMama

Wed, Nov 18 2015, 12:59 pm

eema of 3 wrote:

Perhaps. But I went back and re-read the original post and it's very clearly presented as an issue between the two children, not DS vs. the whole rest of the family.