What exactly was given at Sinai? (threads merged)

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amother

Thu, Jul 12 2007, 5:21 pm

I'm a little confused here... maybe some of you can help me.

What *exactly* was given to us at Mt. Sinai (the first one who says "the Torah" gets bonked over the head Smile

).

Was the written Torah given to us then? The whole Torah? All of Tanach? The Torah up until Yisro?

The reason I ask is because there are problems with each approach.

If you maintain that the entire Written Torah was given at Sinai, I have to ask -- couldn't a lot of what happened have been avoided? Would Moshe have sent the meraglim if he knew in advance what the outcome would be? Would Korach have rebelled? Would Moshe have hit the rock? Would the people have complained? It doesn't seem logical to state that the entire written Torah was given at Sinai. The same problem exists if you state that the entire Tanach was given at Sinai (and yet, the gemara in Berachos says that it was. Help!!)

If you maintain that the written Torah up until Yisro was given (and the rest added later on), you still have a problem. There is a pasuk in B'Shalach that says that the yidden ate the manna for 40 years until they reached Eretz Yisroel. Surely someone would have approached Moshe shortly after the Torah was given and "um, Moshe... I have a question about this pasuk here. What does it mean that we're not getting to Eretz Yisroel for forty years?"

I suppose you could posit that the pasuk was added in at the end of the forty years, but that seems very forced to say that that one pasuk was later added in. Perhaps you can say that the entire parsha was added later on, but that then disrupts the idea that the Torah up to Yisro was given at Sinai.

So, what written texts were given to us at Sinai?

What about the Torah She'B'Al Peh? Was the entire thing given to us at Sinai? Were all the gemaras, mishnayos and midrashim given then? If so, I don't see how you avoid the difficulty of people knowing the future but not trying to avoid it. And yet, the gemara in Berachos says that these things were given at Sinai. Help!!

I can just picture a young Shammai learning mishnayos for the first time and learning the positions that he is destined to hold. I can picture his frustration when he finds out that in the majority of cases we don't hold like him.

Obviously, I don't think such a scenario ever came to pass. I don't think Shammai or Hillel learned the mishnayos in the same sense that we learn them today. So, then, what was given at Sinai and handed down through the generations?

Was it merely the mitzvos themselves (and the details surrounding them, of course) that were given at Sinai? That might make sense, except that there were several mitzvos that obviously were not given at Sinai. Pesach Sheini wasn't given at Sinai; it came later. The laws of inheritance were either not given at Sinai or ammended later when the daughters of Tzelophchad complained. So, obviously, we can't even say that all 613 mitzvos were given at Sinai.

So, I suppose my questions are these:

1. Exactly what written texts were given at Sinai?
2. Exactly what was given orally at Sinai and handed down through the generations?

amother

Thu, Jul 12 2007, 5:30 pm

I'm glad you posted this amother. Anonymous because I've always wondered this myself and people talk about it like everyone should know...I'm curious to hear what Shalhevet, Motek, Tzena Rena et al will have to say...

gryp

Thu, Jul 12 2007, 5:32 pm

It's a Gemara- anything that a worthy Talmid innovated/s was given at Sinai.

I think that answers all the questions.

amother

Thu, Jul 12 2007, 5:38 pm

GR wrote:

It's a Gemara- anything that a worthy Talmid innovated/s was given at Sinai.

I think that answers all the questions.

No it doesn't. It doesn't answer the points I raised above. If *everything* was given at Sinai, then certainly Moshe, Korach, Shaul, Dovid, Shmuel etc. knew what was going to happen. Wouldn't Moshe have avoided sending the meraglim? Wouldn't Korach have not rebelled if he knew what going to happen? Did Shammai really learn the positions that he was destined to hold? Does any of that make sense?

TzenaRena

Thu, Jul 12 2007, 6:09 pm

There's a great new sefer that adresses this topic very comprehensively.

It's entitled Rambam, the 13 principles of Faith, Principles VIII and IX The Torah, and is part of the Gutnick Library of jewish Clasics, from Kol Menachem publications.

The eight principle is Divine Authorship of the Torah. There are 175 pages discussing it. If I get a chance later iyh, I'll post a few points. it's without doubt a fascinating topic.

amother

Thu, Jul 12 2007, 6:13 pm

TzenaRena wrote:

The eight principle is Divine Authorship of the Torah. There are 175 pages discussing it. If I get a chance later iyh, I'll post a few points. it's without doubt a fascinating topic.

I think you might have misunderstood. I'm not disputing the divine authorship of either the Torah SheB'Ksav or the Torah SheB'Al Peh. I just want to know what was given at Har Sinai and what was added on later.

TzenaRena

Thu, Jul 12 2007, 6:20 pm

I didn't misunderstand, of course you were not disputing, but the question of exactly what is under that category of Divine authorship eg. given at Sinai arises. including the role of the Oral Torah in all this. there are incredible explanations, I'd like to post later (after I get some Shabbos underway Wink

).

in other words, when Moshe Rabbenu heard Rabbi Akiva expounding things he never heard before and didn't understand , he felt concerned, Sad

until he heard Rabbi Akiva say: all this is halacha l'Moshe miSinai!

Now what's the meaning of that?
Good discussion.

amother

Thu, Jul 12 2007, 6:25 pm

TzenaRena wrote:

I didn't misunderstand, of course you were not disputing, but the question of exactly what is under that category of Divine authorship eg. given at Sinai arises.

Well, I don't think "divinely given" equates to "given at Sinai." Certainly it's logical to state that the parsha of Korach, for example, was only given after the fact, and yet it could still have been divinely authored... just at a later date.

Quote:

in other words, when Moshe Rabbenu heard Rabbi Akiva expounding things he never heard before and didn't understand , he felt concerned, Sad

until he heard Rabbi Akiva say: all this is halacha l'Moshe miSinai!

Now what's the meaning of that?

Is it possible that this happened after Moshe was up on Har Sinai but before he received the Torah? That would explain it fairly easily why Moshe could not understand what was being said... he hadn't yet encoutered it.

Seraph

Sun, Jul 15 2007, 3:28 am

I read somewhere about the torahs letters being given to moshe, and after the fact, he rearranged these letters to write down the torah, according to what happened.

Motek

Sun, Jul 15 2007, 3:04 pm

See the Hakdama to Rambam's Mishne Torah where he says that all the mitzvos were given to Moshe at Sinai with their explanations. This includes that which would be in the Written and Oral Torahs.

Moshe wrote the Written Torah before he died and gave a copy to each tribe, one copy was put in the aron.

He transmitted the explanation of the mitzvos as Oral Torah to the Elders and Yehoshua and all the Jewish people.

The Rambam goes on to enumerate the chain of transmission. There are many more details about how the Oral Torah was transmitted which will answer some of your other questions.

Another source:

Shemos Rabbah (41:6):
“R. Avahu said: All the 40 days that Moshe spent ‘above’, he would learn Torah and forget. [Moshe] said to [Hashem]: Master of the World! I have 40 days and I don’t know anything (Davar). What did Hashem do? When he completed the 40 days, Hashem gave him the Torah as a gift.”

The Midrash continues: “But did Moshe, in fact, learn the entire Torah? It is written “Aruchah M’eretz midah, urechavah mini yam” (it is longer than the earth and wider than the sea) and in 40 days Moshe mastered it?! Rather Hashem taught Moshe the Klalim (the general rules).”

Moshe Rabbinu received the Written Torah, the Oral Torah, and the Klolei Hatorah how to extract many more details in Pshat, Remez, Drush, and Sod and the "Talmid Vasik" uses Shaklah V’tarya and Pilpul to extract the specific Din from the Klal.

Another source:

The Ohr Hachaim makes it clear that Moshe Rabbeinu received all of Torah Shebiksav and Sheb’al Peh, but he did not know how to link them, I.e. where each Halachah of Torah Sheb’al Peh is rooted in Torah Shebiksav.

shalhevet

Sun, Jul 15 2007, 3:11 pm

As far as I remember there are two opinions:
1. That Moshe received the entire Torah as we know it on Har Sinai.
2. That the actual Torah was only up to the chronological stage of Mattan Torah, but all the mitzvos were also given. Later Moshe was given the various parshios as they happened.

Rashi certainly brings down Chazal as to different opinions as to who wrote the last pesukim of the Torah about Moshe's own death - one that he wrote them himself in tears and the other that Yehoshua wrote them after his petira.

Breslov - I have certainly heard your version as well.

amother

Sun, Jul 15 2007, 3:45 pm

Thank you all for your responses. However, you're not adressing the questions I asked.

Motek,

If the entire Torah was given at Sinai, then why would Korach rebel, knowing what the result would be? Why would Moshe agree to send the meraglim knowing what the result would be? Why would he hit the rock?

In addition, if all the mitzvos were given at Sinai, then how do we account for the fact that some mitzvos, such as Pesach Shaini and the laws of inheritence were obviously not known until later on?

shalhevet

Sun, Jul 15 2007, 3:57 pm

amother wrote:

Thank you all for your responses. However, you're not adressing the questions I asked.

If the entire Torah was given at Sinai, then why would Korach rebel, knowing what the result would be? Why would Moshe agree to send the meraglim knowing what the result would be? Why would he hit the rock?

See answer 2 that I answered above.

Quote:

In addition, if all the mitzvos were given at Sinai, then how do we account for the fact that some mitzvos, such as Pesach Shaini and the laws of inheritence were obviously not known until later on?

Moshe was taught them all, but those mitzvos were taught to the Jewish people later as they were needed. The fact that people had to ask for the halachos is considered a great thing for those who asked that they had the zechus that the halacha was taught through them.

Motek

Sun, Jul 15 2007, 4:05 pm

amother wrote:

If the entire Torah was given at Sinai, then why would Korach rebel, knowing what the result would be? Why would Moshe agree to send the meraglim knowing what the result would be? Why would he hit the rock?

I responded to that by saying that Moshe was taught the mitzvos, not that he was given a sneak preview of coming attractions.

Quote:

In addition, if all the mitzvos were given at Sinai, then how do we account for the fact that some mitzvos, such as Pesach Shaini and the laws of inheritence were obviously not known until later on?

Here's a better question Wink

- the Torah preceded the world and was the blueprint for the world, so how were there all the mitzvos having to do with tuma and tahara if it was before Adam's sin and before death and impurity came into the world?

amother

Sun, Jul 15 2007, 4:42 pm

shalhevet wrote:

amother wrote:

See answer 2 that I answered above.

Thank you, Shalhevet. I have a further question for you then. Did Moshe also get the nevi'im, the mishna, the gemara and the torah sheb'al peh at har sinai too? If so, does the same apply (did Moshe receive the entire text of the gemara as a long string of letters that the tana'aim later "broke up" into words?

Quote:

In addition, if all the mitzvos were given at Sinai, then how do we account for the fact that some mitzvos, such as Pesach Shaini and the laws of inheritence were obviously not known until later on?

But it should be obvious from reading the parsha that the laws of inheritence weren't known to Moshe at the time. When the bnos tzelafchad made their plea, Moshe didn't just answer that daughters inhereit -- he had to bring their case to Hashem for an answer. Obviously, he did not know the din that daughters inherit when there are no sons.

amother

Sun, Jul 15 2007, 4:44 pm

Motek wrote:

amother wrote:

I responded to that by saying that Moshe was taught the mitzvos, not that he was given a sneak preview of coming attractions.

Yes, you did, Motek. Thank you.

Quote:

In addition, if all the mitzvos were given at Sinai, then how do we account for the fact that some mitzvos, such as Pesach Shaini and the laws of inheritence were obviously not known until later on?

Here's a better question Wink

[/quote]

One could argue that the concepts of tumah and tahara existed... just as the concept of murder existed before Kayin committed the first one. Nonetheless, how would you answer this question?

Motek

Sun, Jul 15 2007, 4:49 pm

amother wrote:

Did Moshe also get the nevi'im, the mishna, the gemara and the torah sheb'al peh at har sinai too?

see above - he was taught the MITZVOS with all their details as later elaborated on in the Mishna and Gemara. Mishna and Gemara are Torah sh'b'al peh and I wrote above that he received that.

Mitzvos are not commanded in the Neviim.

Quote:

If so, does the same apply (did Moshe receive the entire text of the gemara as a long string of letters that the tana'aim later "broke up" into words?

No.

good question about the Bnos Tzlefchad, I think the answer is like shalhevet wrote above about it being a zechus for those who asked (like the laws of Pesach Sheini)

amother

Sun, Jul 15 2007, 8:28 pm

Motek wrote:

amother wrote:

Did Moshe also get the nevi'im, the mishna, the gemara and the torah sheb'al peh at har sinai too?

see above - he was taught the MITZVOS with all their details as later elaborated on in the Mishna and Gemara. Mishna and Gemara are Torah sh'b'al peh and I wrote above that he received that.

Right. But there are many mentions in torah sh'b'al peh of future events. There are mishnayos that make reference to Korach and the meraglim. Certainly there are gemaros that go into the meraglim and Korach and other "future" topics in depth. If they were given at Sinai, wouldn't Moshe have known about them beforehand?

Quote:

good question about the Bnos Tzlefchad, I think the answer is like shalhevet wrote above about it being a zechus for those who asked (like the laws of Pesach Sheini)

OK, and what about the mkosheh? The pasuk explicitly states that the punishment wasn't given earlier (at Sinai)?

Motek

Mon, Jul 16 2007, 3:06 pm

[quote="amother"]But there are many mentions in torah sh'b'al peh of future events. [quote]

This was answered several times already.

Quote:

what about the mkosheh? The pasuk explicitly states that the punishment wasn't given earlier (at Sinai)?

I don't understand the question.

amother

Mon, Jul 16 2007, 3:08 pm

[quote="Motek"][quote="amother"]But there are many mentions in torah sh'b'al peh of future events.

Quote:

This was answered several times already.

How? It was said above that the mishna and gemara were given at Sinai. And yet, they contain many refernces to future events? So, were they given at Sinai, or were these sections of the mishna and gemara added in later?

Quote:

what about the mkosheh? The pasuk explicitly states that the punishment wasn't given earlier (at Sinai)?

I don't understand the question.

By the mekoshesh, it says explicitly that they didn't know what punishment to give him, so certianly it wasn't given at Sinai.

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