What exactly was given at Sinai? (threads merged)

TammyTammy

Wed, Nov 07 2007, 7:28 pm

mali wrote:

Tammy, the very simple answer to that is that the term "Torah Mi'Sinai" means from Hashem, as explained earlier. The Artscroll translation here is literal.

Fair enough. I'll accept that "MiSinai" is simply an idiomatic form of "from HaShem." But I want to see if that's what Sue actually says.

Tammy

Sue DaNym

Wed, Nov 07 2007, 10:43 pm

for the last 3000 plus years, weve been taught that moshe got the torah on sinai. the gemara says that he got the aseres hadibros, torah, navi, kesuvim, mishna and gemara -- obviously it means that he got the entire thing. so yes, moshe got a copy of the chumash navi and all the rest on har sinai.

as for yur questions, I find them highly inappopriate for a board for frum women who are maaminim. u boast that you dont beleive in torah misinai and yur questions smack of kfirah.

if u dont believe in torah misinai then you violate one of the rambams ikkarim which are the bedrocks of our faith. if u dont believe in torah misinai as u yurself openly admited then I dont have to answer yur stupid questions.

Ruchel

Thu, Nov 08 2007, 1:37 pm

Sue... your point would be more effective if you refrained from insulting people. It's really annoying and childish.

That said, even among those who believe Moshe received everything, many think some was given and transmitted orally until it was recorded in Talmud times... some even learn he received the letters but in no order.

Last thing, "frum women" are not maaminim, JEWS are (even if some don't know it).

Motek

Mon, Nov 19 2007, 5:43 pm

If you look up the Ramban's introduction to Bereishis, you'll see that he says:

The entire Torah consists of G-d's names ... and that the Torah was written as black fire on white fire. The letters were written continuously, with no spaces, and it could be read as G-d's names or as we read it, about Torah and mitzvos. It was given to Moshe Rabeinu in the form of reading the mitzvos and transmitted to him orally as G-d's names.

nothing here about Arvos Moav and the story sequence

Torah preceded Creation. It's not a history book that has to have a proper chronology.

shalhevet

Mon, Nov 19 2007, 5:46 pm

mali, how did you get involved in that schizophrenic discussion??
Unbelievable to read it with hindsight.

Maybe at least we can take the message that when there are things Hashem does that it is difficult for us to understand (tzaddik vera lo, rasha vetov lo) that maybe we are just missing one important part of the puzzle... With hindsight it would all be so different...

redhot

Mon, Nov 19 2007, 5:57 pm

Sue DaNym wrote:

TammyTammy wrote:

Someone once asked me if I believe in Torah MiSinai.

"Of course not," I responded.

in fact I cant shock

enough!

let me make it simple for you. everything we have today the chumash navi ketuvim mishna gemara rishonim achronim all of it was given to moshe on har sinai. thats one of the very foundations of our religion and you say that you dont belive in torah misinai???!!!!

if you open up an artscroll gemara berachos page 5a1 go to note 15 on the bottom where it says taht not only the 10 commandments, but also "the whole of the pentatuch the mishna the prohets and writings and the talmud were all given to moses at sinai."

so yes to answer your question when he was on har sinai moshe got the chumash just as we have it. thats the core of our belief

did she get sloppy over here? would such an extremist lubavicha chasidista say keTuvim?

Very Happy

Lechatchila Ariber

Mon, Nov 19 2007, 6:20 pm

she got sloppy in many places.
as I wrote before many lubavitchers were already suspecting earlier that she didn't sound very lubavitch. A few were shocked to see her in the lub forum.

gryp

Mon, Nov 19 2007, 6:42 pm

I think it's the end of anyone trusting anyone else. Confused

There will always be that thought in the back of our minds... what if?

OH shock

Remember that amother who accused mali, Motek, Sue, etc, of being the same poster?
Was that Tammy/Sue as amother??? shock

Clarissa

Mon, Nov 19 2007, 6:48 pm

GR wrote:

I think it's the end of anyone trusting anyone else. Confused

There will always be that thought in the back of our minds... what if?

OH shock

Remember that amother who accused mali, Motek, Sue, etc, of being the same poster?
Was that Tammy/Sue as amother??? shock

Conspiracy theories will abound. I used a kugel recipe from here and it turned out terrible. Now that I think about it, the amother who offered it might have been Tammy, trying to tamper with my kugel. Exploding anger

cindy324

Mon, Nov 19 2007, 7:04 pm

Quote:

We've officially entered the twilight zone...

mali

Mon, Nov 19 2007, 7:05 pm

Clarissa wrote:

LOL, sorry about your kugel!

mimivan

Mon, Nov 19 2007, 7:09 pm

Well, one good thing to come out of this is I remember a particularly nasty anon poster who sounded a lot like Sue (and disappeared when Sue appeared)...I used to get so upset reading her horrible posts.

Now they are both gone...b'h...(at least I hope so...if the anon was actually sue)

Tammy was sometimes tolerable. But what's with the repetition, Tammy Tammy..

And if it was a guy, Maybe Tammy Tammy was Sammy Sammy...

mali

Mon, Nov 19 2007, 7:10 pm

Motek wrote:

Motek, of course the Torah preceded the world. Nobody doubts that. הסתכל באורייתא וברא עלמא isn't a Lubavitch concept. I believe MO learn that too.

We were discussing if Torah Sheb'ksav was given at Matan Torah in its entirety, and the answer is no. Torah Sheb'ksav was completed on the 7th of Adar, 2488, according to Rashi in V'zos Habracha. Tammy was right about it being impossible that the story of the Meraglim, for example, was given at Sinai. The part of the written Torah that was given during the time of Matan Torah is "Sefer Habris", as I've written earlier in this thread.