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What exactly was given at Sinai? (threads merged)
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Clarissa




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Nov 19 2007, 4:13 pm
mimivan wrote:

Tammy was sometimes tolerable.


Hey, don't insult the poster who tells rude kids that she got fat by eating rude kids who asked about her weight.

I loved that. I only wish Sue had been so much fun.
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GAMZu




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Nov 19 2007, 6:20 pm
TammyTammy wrote:
Sue DaNym wrote:
TammyTammy wrote:
Someone once asked me if I believe in Torah MiSinai.

"Of course not," I responded.



shock shock shock shock shock shock shock
in fact I cant shock enough!

let me make it simple for you. everything we have today the chumash navi ketuvim mishna gemara rishonim achronim all of it was given to moshe on har sinai. thats one of the very foundations of our religion and you say that you dont belive in torah misinai???!!!!


I explained what I meant in the rest of the post, which you conveniently ignored.

Quote:

if you open up an artscroll gemara berachos page 5a1 go to note 15 on the bottom where it says taht not only the 10 commandments, but also "the whole of the pentatuch the mishna the prohets and writings and the talmud were all given to moses at sinai."

so yes to answer your question when he was on har sinai moshe got the chumash just as we have it. thats the core of our belief


As much as I don't like the way you selectively quote me to twist my words well beyond their intended meaning, at least you were the first to give me a straightforward answer to this question. Thank you for that.

Now that you've pointed me to a source that says that Moshe got the entire Chumash, Navi, Mishna and Gemara while on Sinai, please answer my related question, to wit:

If Moshe received the entire Torah (as we have it today) on Sinai, then he (and the rest of K'lal Yisroel) already knew what would happen when they sent the Meraglim into the land. So why did they? Why go through with a plan that you know will fail and will result in forty years of wandering and the deaths of every person in the congregation?

If Moshe had the entire text of the Chumash on Mt. Sinai, why didn't Moshe try to prevent the deaths of his nephews or his own act of hitting the rock, so that he could enter Eretz Yisroel?

If Klal Yisroel already had the entire Torah at the time of Sinai, then why did Korach, Dasan, Aviram and the 250 levi'im rebel? Couldn't they read what would happen to them? Why did Zimri do his deed? Couldn't he see that Pin'chas would eventually kill him for it?

If they had the entire Torah (as we have it) at Sinai, then why did the B'nos Tzelafchad have to make their appeal -- they should have simply pointed Moshe to the relevant text in Parshas Pin'chas. Why did Moshe have any doubt about which death penalty to give the Mekosheh Aitzim? Didn't he read the parsha?

If Klal Yisroel had the entire Navi at Har Sinai (which, according to your quote from Artscroll, they did) then why did they attack Ai when they knew that they would lose because of the sin of Achan? Heck, why did Achan even sin then if he knew he'd be put to death because of it?

In short, if these people had foreknowledge of events that caused them to suffer terrible consequences, then why on earth would they follow through with those actions? It simply makes no sense.

Tammy


This post probably gave Tammy the most pleasure. Wink
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Clarissa




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Nov 19 2007, 6:45 pm
Boy, those posts took a lot of effort. I'm too lazy to read that whole thing, and he/she/it bothered to do that to argue with him/her/itself? Wow! If I had that much energy I'd spend it cooking or cleaning.
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TzenaRena




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Nov 19 2007, 11:41 pm
shalhevet wrote:
mali, how did you get involved in that schizophrenic discussion??
Unbelievable to read it with hindsight.

Maybe at least we can take the message that when there are things Hashem does that it is difficult for us to understand (tzaddik vera lo, rasha vetov lo) that maybe we are just missing one important part of the puzzle... With hindsight it would all be so different...
And I thought of another one: hu hayetzer harah, hu haSatan, hu hamalach hamoves..... I guess we all get caught up in this game of multiple personalities, when we let the yetzer harah dupe us, we ride along for the rest of the game.... shock
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Apple pie




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Nov 20 2007, 12:32 am
Clarissa wrote:
I used a kugel recipe from here and it turned out terrible.


THAT'S why some people post their recipes as amother!!!!! LOL LOL
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technic




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Nov 20 2007, 12:40 am
Apple pie wrote:
Clarissa wrote:
I used a kugel recipe from here and it turned out terrible.


THAT'S why some people post their recipes as amother!!!!! LOL LOL


(now im DEFINITELY not going 2 admit it was mine Wink )
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