Non-kosher food in kosher restaurant

amother

Mauve

Wed, Dec 16 2015, 2:27 pm

I just went out with my husband for lunch to a kosher restaurant in Manhattan. There was a company holiday lunch there that was sitting near us and before their food came, a Chinese guy started passing around non-kosher dumplings (room temperature) and everyone was eating them with their forks.

Two frum guys at that table said nothing! No waiters, managers, etc said anything! I got up and told the manager, and he came over to that table and said - please stop eating this. Then I said - what about the forks? So then the manager said - ok I'll take the forks and give new ones.

My question is - is anyone in the hashgacha field? Is this a problem? What is the worst that can happen here? I know that similar things happen (I have seen in Pesach hotel and also with regard to milk and meat). If everything is cold or at least not boiling hot? What if it goes into a boiling hot dishwasher? Do they put soap in the dishwasher? I am perplexed and this is making me distrustful of eating in restaurants.

Does anyone have any more information about things like this?

Chana Miriam S

Wed, Dec 16 2015, 2:45 pm

So, on it's face, they really just need to wash the forks in water less than yad soledet bo, but if it was a restaurant I was supervising, then I would take it to the rav hamachshir to confirm my course of action. Hopefully the manager was on top of setting the forks aside to ask the mashgiach. IF the restaurant is not run by shomer shabbat/kashrut people, generally there is a mashgiach temidi on site. If you want to know what happened after, it might be worth a conversation with the overseeing authority to ensure that a) they knew about it and b) that it was rectified to their satisfaction, however that might have been deemed. Truthfully, as a mashgiach, generally, you are supervising the kitchen, so what happens in the eating area is not as much on your radar when you are up to your knees in green vegetables you have to check or taking care of new vegetables arriving.

I will also say that its my guess, and just a guess, that even if the forks were thrown into a dishwasher with other things, both the detergent and the fact that there was likely not a lot of residue left on the items, probably means that batul would come into play. I can't pasken, obviously, but ultimately, depending on what was done right after the incident, either way, I can't see it leading to a massive treifing of the restaurant. Of course, I could be wrong and I am NOT a rav, its just my guess.

amother

Mauve

Wed, Dec 16 2015, 2:59 pm

Thanks Andrea. I feel a lot better. Also, it's interesting that you mention that the mashgiach generally stays in the kitchen. When I first saw the dumplings, I flagged a waiter and I said - hey, please get "the rabbi." So he went to the back, to the kitchen, and a man with a kippah came out, who looked around baffled and then went over to the manager to notify him.

lifesagift

Wed, Dec 16 2015, 3:14 pm

amother wrote:

Two frum guys at that table said nothing! No waiters, managers, etc said anything! I got up and told the manager, and he came over to that table and said - please stop eating this. Then I said - what about the forks? So then the manager said - ok I'll take the forks and give new ones.?

Thanx for speaking up btw. I can't imagine why any restaurant would tolerate outside food

sweetpotato

Wed, Dec 16 2015, 3:18 pm

In practical terms, it's unlikely the treif dumplings could have affected anything else in the restaurant. But, it does sound like the restaurant needs more supervision. Granted, they can't search people's bags or monitor every diner constantly, and I could see this happening during a busy lunch hour. It could just be that they need more signs posted conspicuously stating that no outside food is allowed. You might consider calling the kashrut agency that certifies the restaurant and just let them know what happened, so they can take whatever action is appropriate (more training for the mashgiach, telling the owner to put up more signs, etc.)

MiracleMama

Wed, Dec 16 2015, 3:22 pm

Funny, I've been reprimanded in restaurants for pulling out certified kosher parve baby food and water bottles, and even having a tied up grocery bag sitting on the chair next to me and this guy is passing around dumplings and nobody says boo.
Glad you brought this to the restaurant's attention OP and hope they addressed it and will be more vigilant.

Chana Miriam S

Wed, Dec 16 2015, 3:29 pm

amother wrote:

So then, its a good bet that he was the mashgiach temidi (not all mashgiachs are rabbis-present company included) and that the issue would have been brought to the attention of his supervisor or rav hamachshir. I think it's great that you pointed it out and made it known that this was an issue.