The brachos | Imamother

yo'ma

Thu, Dec 17 2015, 8:07 am

What are things you learned on why the order of the brachos are that order and about the actual brachos? I know people "complain" why does it say shelo asani isha, etc.. What different things did you learn about all of it?

shoshana2

Thu, Dec 17 2015, 1:09 pm

I learned that women are naturally more connected to Hashem than men and therefore do not have the mitzva of limud torah, tefilin or other zeman grama mitzvos. That being said women have less mitzvos or less opportunities for growth than men because they are already on a higher level.
A little bit like malachim vs people. Malachim are on a higher madrega than people but people have opportunity to grow and malachim do not.
Does that make sense? I don't think about this too much, I kind of feel like men and women have different rolls in Yiddishkeit and both are complimentary to each other.

eschaya

Thu, Dec 17 2015, 1:13 pm

Shoshana2 gave you the nice, placating answer given to women.
But if you pay attention, shelo asani ishah is lumped together with shelo asani aved and shelo asani [gentile]. Not exactly in the malachim category. At one point I tried asking these sorts of questions to rabbanim, but no answer ever sat well.
So at this point my strategy is just not to think too much about this because I know it will lead me to a cliff I don't feel like jumping off.

shoshana2

Thu, Dec 17 2015, 1:51 pm

I think that my answer is consistant with the shelo asani eved and (gentile) grouping. Both t avadim and gentiles also have less mitzvos they are required to keep and less growth they need to do in order to reach their potential.

PinkFridge

Thu, Dec 17 2015, 9:40 pm

Rav Schwab on Prayer might be a great source. I lent mine out so can't check now.

miami85

Thu, Dec 17 2015, 10:46 pm

I once attended a class where the teacher went into great depth as to the order of the brachos. It was a long time ago and I lost my notes, so I will try to recall it the best I can but there is a lot of chachma behind the order.

1)You can't thank someone with out the understanding that you were given something, and therefore have what to be thankful for so "lasechvi binah"--you gave the heart/rooster what to be thankful for.

2-4) There were certain categories of people that weren't required to give thanks, because they are not free --such as a [gentile], eved and let's face it women have fewer mitzvos (time-bound mitzvos) than men and are also subservient to men--thanks to Chava (and frankly I know my husband is glad he doesn't have to go through childbirth) so that's why they get the next 3 brachos--but I forget why women say "Shasani kirtzono" according to the Women's siddur it's because women are given the responsibility to take care and nuture children--the next generation and we are thanking Hashem for that rite.

The next series of brachos are sequential because of the order of the proper morning routine. opening eyes, standing up straight, getting dressed, putting on shoes (sheasa li kol tzarki refers to shoes),

then you acknowledge Hashem's presenece in your day--hameichin mitzadei gaver, I forget the others, but they refer to the morning routine as well.

zaq

Thu, Dec 17 2015, 11:34 pm

If I were ever to go OTD, the humiliation of having to stand in shul and listen to "shelo asani ishah" would be what pushed me off the edge. Rationalize all you like, there is no way that saying "Thank You, G-d, for not making me a ________" is anything but an insult to all ________s.

The Conservative siddur uses "sheasani ben chorin, sheasani Yisrael, sheasani betzalmo." It's high time Orthodoxy took this back. Yes, BACK. CJ did not create this version "yesh me'ayin". It is based on a centuries-old nusach that unfortunately didn't make #1 on the tefillah hit parade and was edged out of circulation by the nusach currently used. Aside from preserving the self-respect of more than half the Jewish people, it expresses its ideas in positive terms. Why thank G-d for what He didn't do when you can thank him for what he did?

samantha87

Thu, Dec 17 2015, 11:47 pm

Simple and forgotten pshat in shelo asani... Is that it's a polemic response to Paul http://biblehub.com/galatians/3-28.htm
He said all are the same before God. We say that we are not all the same before God: in ascending order, the eved ivri has more mitzvos than a non-Jew, a women has more mitzvos or at least more opportunity to do them than an eved ivri, and man has the most mitzvos.

5mom

Fri, Dec 18 2015, 12:53 am

zaq wrote:

Rationalize all you like, there is no way that saying "Thank You, G-d, for not making me a ________" is anything but an insult to all ________s.

Yes, yes, a thousand times yes! I hate the tendency to say to women, "Of course you are not a second class citizen, now let me insult your intelligence to prove it."

There's no way to spin this positively. Let's be honest and move on.

naomi6

Fri, Dec 18 2015, 12:57 am

It just means we should we be happy and appreciate our status men and women

5mom

Fri, Dec 18 2015, 1:19 am

naomi6 wrote:

It just means we should we be happy and appreciate our status men and women

If so, women would thank Hashem for not making us men.

chani8

Fri, Dec 18 2015, 1:25 am

I stopped saying that list of brachos. It triggers bad feelings. So I only say the ones that dont interfere with my kavana.

loveandpeace

Fri, Dec 18 2015, 1:31 am

Men prob say shelo asani isha cuz they are happy they do not have PMS and labor pains.

loveandpeace

Fri, Dec 18 2015, 1:36 am

http://daattorah.blogspot.com/.....l?m=1

5mom

Fri, Dec 18 2015, 2:29 am

loveandpeace wrote:

http://daattorah.blogspot.com/2012/06/ropshitzerexplaining-shelo-asani-isha.html?m=1

Really? Someone found that comforting?

sequoia

Fri, Dec 18 2015, 2:52 am

Russian men say sarcastically, "I'd rather give birth once than shave every day."

But of course Jewish women give birth much more than once, and Jewish men don't shave at all.

Ruchel

Fri, Dec 18 2015, 5:20 am

http://forward.com/sisterhood/.....oman/ (they are ignorant about saying it's against women to say, but otherwise interesting)
FTR the rav was from Avignon, not Italy.

PinkFridge

Fri, Dec 18 2015, 8:48 am

zaq wrote:

Since there is a mekor to say it, then I suggest that if people prefer this nusach say it, but as individuals. There is no way it will be taken back on an institutional level now, for many reasons, and not all of them - if any - misogynistic or xenophobic.
I prefer to stick with the accepted nusach.

eschaya

Fri, Dec 18 2015, 9:50 am

I only wish I could still believe the platitudes about women being holier and better. But all you have to do is take a closer look at some midrashim and commentaries (ex; netziv, ralbag, especially on Sefer Breishis) to recognize that women are indeed seen by some in our mesorah as inferior, unintelligent, subordinate creatures who were created for the sole purpose of serving the needs of men. I don't want to post details here because it will be shut down, but you should know - for the sake of your integrity - that the niceties we are told are to placate us; this is the true opiate. Of course it's not all mefarshim, many believe differently (especially R' S.R. Hirsch - he actually sees women as the higher form... men were created from dirt, women from a human being, he considers man the "experimental model" with women the more ideal prototype) but the train of thought does exist.

Take this how you may. I choose to continue to believe in Hashem but to allow my emunas chachamim to deteriorate somewhat to preserve that belief in Hashem. DH was worried at some point that I was having apikorus-like thoughts, so we spoke to an adam gadol who actually said that if Torah shebeal peh (and tefila, presumably) were being codified nowadays, most of the things said about women would be very different. All people, including gedolim and talmidei chachamim, are to some extent products of their times, and for thousands of years it would have been nearly impossible to recognize the extent of the intelligence, abilities, value and worth of women . The Rav we spoke to said that although he would not encourage teaching this in BYs to the masses, it is not an apikorusdik way of thinking. This is the lifeline I cling to so that I do not jump off the cliff of apikorsus that I sometimes near.
But I still have a hard time with that bracha.

Also, to make those of us who struggle with this feel better, I think it was one of the brisker rebbetzins who used to have a hard time with this (I have to look this up to get exact details). It bothered her greatly to have to say "amen" to the bracha of "shelo asani isha". And yet she still remained the Isha chashuva that she was. For me, this is a comfort knowing that such a good, frum, chashuv rebbitzen struggled with the same things that I do, and also to realize that even though she had these questions and struggles, she was still able to remain

zaq

Sat, Dec 19 2015, 10:00 pm

5mom wrote:

If so, women would thank Hashem for not making us men.

No, if so men and women would both say she'asani kir'tzono. Or betzalmo. Or bid'varo. Or whatever. Why make the diSTINKtion along gender lines at all?