S@xual Harassment in the workplace!!!

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Mimisinger

Mon, Jul 16 2007, 12:02 am

I just spoke to a good friend of mine who is having trouble at work. She works in an office with chassidic men and she is constantly s-xually harassed. She is very frum and innocent and sweet and is the only single girl there. There are other women who work in the office, but not right by her and she is the only single one. The men there are constantly saying things with double entendres or things within earshot re. how she looks, walks or even her chest!!! She says it even includes her manager! I want to go down there and say more than a few things to these "frum" men and even more to their rabbeim and even wives....How could they do this to her? She is so innocent and I told her to tell her boss that's higher up but she feels that they won't believe her because the things aren't said directly to her, she just hears them said as she walks away or they're not totally clear, they're double entrendres and can be construed in different ways.

What would you do? What should I do?

She says she's never worked with all chassidim before and she thought that they'd all be like her Tatie - kind, etc. Instead, she feels like it's all a lie - beards, black and white and peyes but with salicious comments! Plus, it's not even like just one man in her office, it's a couple!

Again, advice anyone???

(BTW, if anyone should feel the need to blame the victim - don't even go there... Exploding anger

)

happymom

Mon, Jul 16 2007, 12:33 am

she should work somehwere else.

amother

Mon, Jul 16 2007, 12:42 am

Working for over 25 years in 10 differnt places I have never had a problem neither have my friends. Let her go work elsewhere.

HindaRochel

Mon, Jul 16 2007, 12:42 am

I would work elsewhere and let any friend I know not to work there. However, if that isn't an option she needs to get vocal. If she hears a comment call them on it.

"I can hear you and I don't appreciate what you are saying."
or for a double entendre
"Exactly what do you mean by that statement?"

amother

Mon, Jul 16 2007, 12:46 am

My opinion

Its usually the girls that go dressed thinking "oh let me hear what they have to say"

Usually hear these things.

mimivan

Mon, Jul 16 2007, 12:55 am

I am surprised they would hire a woman in a place like that...
Usually in a haredi place where all men are there they would dafka not hire a woman...they would have a man as a secretary.

The fact that they hired a woman at all in a place like that is definitely a red flag...She should not only leave, but should ensure, the next time she is hired, that she will be working with women, or there is a gender balance.

mimivan

Mon, Jul 16 2007, 12:56 am

amother wrote:

My opinion

Its usually the girls that go dressed thinking "oh let me hear what they have to say"

Usually hear these things.

Wow, three guesses why you are posting anon. Wouldn't be creeping misogyny, would it? Rolling Eyes

If you really meant it, you'd post with your name...

sarahd

Mon, Jul 16 2007, 4:52 am

mimivan wrote:

That might be so in Israel, but not in America. Here it's normal to hire women for secretarial work - she's not the only female working in that office.

Can she request to work in the same area as the other women?

Mimisinger

Mon, Jul 16 2007, 7:34 am

Hinda Rochel, thanks for your constructive comments....

As for the rude amother - what is wrong with you???? Blaming the victim??? She is FRUM. She is not dressing inappropriately and even if she came in in a bikini, there is no reason for a FRUM, MARRIED man who is probably old enough to be her father to make any comments at all!!! Again, what's wrong with you?

Mom2girls

Mon, Jul 16 2007, 7:44 am

she should definitely change jobs, and she didn't mention any of this to her parents...? I think she should do that too if she doesn't want to confront her boss with it let her parents do it and of course warn e/o not to get a job there.

newmom

Mon, Jul 16 2007, 10:35 am

She is an adult. She does not need her mommy and daddy to take care of things for her. She needs to go to the manager's boss and have a discussion with him regarding the harassment (which is illegal) in the workplace.

chen

Mon, Jul 16 2007, 1:01 pm

Speaking as a person with experience working in a secular environment--I'm assuming this is in the US:

1. She should start looking for another job because the place is never going to be a pleasant environment for her. It's unfair that the innocent have to run away while the guilty stay on, but when you're in danger you don't have the luxury of worrying about what's fair and what's not. IOW: You may have the right-of-way at the crosswalk, but if a guy in a Mack truck is speeding down the street and showing no signs of slowing, you don't stand on your rights. You get the heck out of the way, kwim?

In the meantime

2. She should immediately state her objections, firmly and seriously--NOT SMILING and NOT SWEETLY. As in "I find what you just said objectionable. Kindly do not talk in this manner in my presence. " It is very, very important that she not speak as Miss Sweet Young Thing, contrary to her personality though this may be. The least hint of a smile or of "niceness" will completely destroy her credibility. And she MUST NOT APOLOGIZE! No wishy-washiness, no qualifying statements, no "I don't mean to offend you, but...". These creeps know exactly what they're doing and are depending on her naivete, her fear, and her niceness. She's fighting for her life, basically--she has to do it like she means it.

3. If this works (yeah, right), great. If not, she must repeat the statement and

4. Notify the boss. She can ask to be reassigned to a location near the other women--it does seem odd that such a frum-sounding workplae would allow a girl to be working surrounded by men, isolated from the other women.

She should also keep a written record of her interactions with the coworkers--yes, scribble down what they said, when they said it, what she said to them. Also when she told the boss, and what the boss did in response.

In short, she needs to document her case, show that she made her objections known to the perps, asked them to stop, and informed her employer. That's her only hope of proving a valid case should she decide to take legal action.

She should also ask the other women if they have ever been "treated" to similar behavior. If she's very lucky, maybe an older, more confident woman will give the men a good talking-to on her behalf. In any case, she has to put her own foot down and let the creeps know she objects. Shtikoh kehodooh in secular law, too.

cheerios

Mon, Jul 16 2007, 1:14 pm

Chen!

ChavieK

Mon, Jul 16 2007, 3:16 pm

chen that was great!!!

greenfire

Mon, Jul 16 2007, 3:23 pm

I think a rov should be told about this and the boss should be confronted ...

and most definately the girl should find another job - she does not have to be harassed and to stand up to all those people - well she might not be up to it ... although I would certainly see if there is any legal recourse ...

Lilkingdom

Fri, Jul 20 2007, 5:26 pm

For all of those who recommend that she leave her workplace, well don't judge before you're in her shoes. I had a similar problem. I work in a place with two men and no other women. Both men are very frum and in the 30s. In the beginning they used to just stare which I ignored. It eventually got to flirty comments like 'I like your outfit' or 'you're very cute' ...etc.

I was told to find a new job and I looked around for one. But you know what...it's not as easy as everyone thinks! My job was in perfect location, payed very well and I loved the work I did.

After a while when the men didn't let go, I went over to one of them and 'very respectfully' told him that if they won't treat me like a regular worker than I'll report their behavior.

Guess what...They still stare (after all they're men) but they don't tell me anything!

and NO I DO NOT dress in a manner to attract attention on purposely!

Sometimes you just gotta teach those men a lesson. Otherwise they'll do the same to the next worker.

Blossom

Sun, Jul 22 2007, 12:20 am

I also had an incident in my workplace when I was a young girl where a man came to do work for us for a few weeks.
He was more a modern type but definitely frum to know Halachos and for sure in his 40's!!
His comments were getting worse and worse. I decided to tell one of the workers who was related to the big boss about this and they made sure somehow to get rid of him.
So, either she makes sure that their behavior will not be tolerated, which is not easy and doesn't guarantee that things will change much and may also cause an uncomfortable enviroment,
OR
as others before me have advised, she should look for a new job.

miriamnechama

Tue, Jul 24 2007, 4:49 am

I do not get why frum chasidish men would do this?? what if their wives would find out?? do theywant to risk devorce or don't they care?? anyways she should leave and stand up for herself.

dh works in a company in an office where he only had men with him usually 2 to a room, but if a lady would come in for something he 2wouldn't go and ay oh you have a nice outfit etc... he just knows thatit I not done and anyways he'd have it when he got hom,e if I knew about it. andhe has singles at work. I don't even know if it's right for a man to call another woman by her first name... though people still do. I learnt once in a shiurthat a woman can really call anotherman by his first name so I don't know if it applies to the man as well.

Besides isn't it illigal?? couldn't she take police action or it won't help??

it sounds like these men have some kind of problem...

btMOMtoFFBs

Tue, Jul 24 2007, 7:17 am

Chen, that was awesome advice. I'd like to add she should document all these events, too. She should right down names and dates and what was said. She'l have evidence if she wants to speak with the company head or take legal action.

TorahMom48

Fri, Sep 21 2007, 3:30 am

There was some good advice and thoughts here (excepting some anon poster(s) but I don't think going to the boss will help for the simple reason that if he is of the same mentality (which he may or may not be) as the others, he may simply try to brush it off....or it might make things worse for her, there certainly needs to be a plan b, and yes it is not easy to switch jobs. It is awful that "frum" men behave this way.

Mimi do you have an update for us? Has anything been done to improve her situation?

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