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Did R Yosef Mizrachi just say that in his Shiur on Jroot?
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Mevater




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Dec 22 2015, 11:31 pm
Rav Yosef Mizrachi said he was asked to speak in Belz in Israel and he mentioned in this Shiur about inner Tzidkus and outer Tzidkus. Mitzvos and Aveiros that people can see and Mitzvos and Aveiros that people cant see. He was saying that some people dress the part but they do very many Aveiros, and Rav Yosef Mizrachi was saying its very important to act frum, not only dress frum.

R' Mizrachi then said that the Belzer Rosh Yeshiva came up to speak after him, and said the way he sees it, its more important to dress frum than eat kosher/keep Shabbos, etc and his proof is, that Jews were saved because they didnt change their names, language and clothing. He said the way we dress is more important than Shmiras Shabbos.

R Mizrachi then said he researched all over and found that Shmiras Shabbos is in the Torah, but keeping the same dress is only a Minhag that came about much later. The black hat that all frum people wear today began in Europe and the famous Eichmann wore the same black hat, whereas keeping Shabbos is one of our most important Mitzvos stressed in the Torah.

My question is:

Did a Belzer Rosh Yeshiva really say that dress is more important than Shmiras Shabbos? I find that hard to believe. I think something wasnt given over accurately.

Did anyone listen to R' Mizrachi's Shiur on Jroot that just finished right now?
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samantha87




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Dec 23 2015, 12:00 am
Mevater wrote:
Rav Yosef Mizrachi said he was asked to speak in Belz in Israel and he mentioned in this Shiur about inner Tzidkus and outer Tzidkus. Mitzvos and Aveiros that people can see and Mitzvos and Aveiros that people cant see. He was saying that some people dress the part but they do very many Aveiros, and Rav Yosef Mizrachi was saying its very important to act frum, not only dress frum.

R' Mizrachi then said that the Belzer Rosh Yeshiva came up to speak after him, and said the way he sees it, its more important to dress frum than eat kosher/keep Shabbos, etc and his proof is, that Jews were saved because they didnt change their names, language and clothing. He said the way we dress is more important than Shmiras Shabbos.

R Mizrachi then said he researched all over and found that Shmiras Shabbos is in the Torah, but keeping the same dress is only a Minhag that came about much later. The black hat that all frum people wear today began in Europe and the famous Eichmann wore the same black hat, whereas keeping Shabbos is one of our most important Mitzvos stressed in the Torah.

My question is:

Did a Belzer Rosh Yeshiva really say that dress is more important than Shmiras Shabbos? I find that hard to believe. I think something wasnt given over accurately.

Did anyone listen to R' Mizrachi's Shiur on Jroot that just finished right now?


I find most inspiring speakers hard to believe. But look at the chassidish world: it's very easy to imagine that some (many?) believe that their mode of dress and language are the most important. For example, In KJ they won't count a man for minyan if he doesn't dress in their style. You could imagine that in the yeshivish and chareidi worlds too. Who is respected: the one who dresses the part (hat, sheitel, whatever) but has has horrible midos, or the tzadik who dresses differently?
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Deep




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Dec 23 2015, 12:16 am
samantha87 wrote:
For example, In KJ they won't count a man for minyan if he doesn't dress in their style.
I find this hard to believe. My husband has often told me that wherever he travels, Satmar shuls are the most welcoming and warm places he has davened in. Beneath the Chassidic zealotry, they are an incredibly generous and compassionate community that will open their hearts and pockets for another yid.
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treestump




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Dec 23 2015, 12:20 am
I'm finding this hard to believe, too. I know a lot of chassidish people and cannot imagine a single one of them thinking that wearing a beketche or shtreimel is more important than keeping shabbos.

Obviously, there is a lot of stress on levush in the chassidish community. That may or may not be a positive thing. But more important than keeping Shabbos??? C'mon!
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Mevater




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Dec 23 2015, 12:45 am
So I have 2 questions:

Did Rabbi Mizrachi say what I thought he said.... did anyone else listen on Jroot tonight?

And

Do any Israeli or Belzer women here know how this discussion went when R Mizrachi spoke to men in Belz?

I thought Rabbi Mizrachi said he was shocked when he heard the Belzer Rosh Yeshiva say that keeping dress customs (minhagim) is more important than Shmiras Shabbos.
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5mom




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Dec 23 2015, 12:59 am
Maybe this Belzer rosh yeshiva said that even if someone doesn't keep shabbos he ought to at least keep dressing like a chassid? As in, try to identify with the group so you're not totally lost. Not that I find this convincing, but it's reasonable enough.
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Mevater




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Dec 23 2015, 1:06 am
5mom wrote:
Maybe this Belzer rosh yeshiva said that even if someone doesn't keep shabbos he ought to at least keep dressing like a chassid? As in, try to identify with the group so you're not totally lost. Not that I find this convincing, but it's reasonable enough.


How would a person dressed Chassidish, eating non Kosher food or publicly being Mechalel Shabbos, be a good thing for children to see? I think that would be very confusing. Anyhow, its not realistic except for the "Orthoprax", living double lives, mostly to avoid family break-ups, etc. I cant see anyone recommending this.
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5mom




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Dec 23 2015, 1:14 am
Mevater wrote:
How would a person dressed Chassidish, eating non Kosher food or publicly being Mechalel Shabbos, be a good thing for children to see? I think that would be very confusing. Anyhow, its not realistic except for the "Orthoprax", living double lives, mostly to avoid family break-ups, etc. I cant see anyone recommending this.


Like I said, I don't find it convincing, but maybe if clothing mattered so much to me it would be different. I was just trying to give this rosh yeshiva the benefit of the doubt.
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Heyaaa




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Dec 23 2015, 1:49 am
I don't know what was or wasn't said but I find it unlikely that the conversation went as you quoted it. Anyone who thinks about it for two seconds realizes that they were saved bec they didn't change their clothes, names and language, but they did change everything else, also realizes that it was before matan Torah and therefore we weren't mechuyav in anything else. So they kept their identity as bnei Yaakov but that was more than God expected of them at that point.

Also what zchus saved the Jews from the holocaust? it's not like anyone in the concentration camps was wearing levush.

(Btw dh wears a Striemel and bekeshe on Shabbos and I couldn't be more proud. So I'm not attacking any dress code)
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cinnamon




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Dec 23 2015, 2:11 am
I heard something similar once in a lecture what the lecturer said was that everyone has ups and downs in their life. If you are in a slump, so down that you can't even keep shabbos you should do your best to at least stay frum on the outside.

He gave three reasons for this:
1. It's easier than fighting head on to keep shabbos and if you give that up as well as shabbos you might end up with nothing at all.
2. Eventually slumps end and it will get easier. When it does you will have an easier time getting back to where you were spiritually if you don't have to spend your energy on changing your dress again and re-integrating into the frum community.
3. For the next generation - If you stay frum on the outside your kids will grow up in a frum environment and though you won't be able to give them real chinuch there is more of a chance that they'll meet someone who will and stay really frum not just on the outside.

I'm not sure I agree with him though I think the third argument has some merit and I can also see some truth in the first two.

As I was writing this post I remembered a famous mashal from the Chafetz Chaim, he said that you know that a store might eventually re-open if it still has it's sign up but if they take the sign off you know the store won't reopen.
His Nimshal was that shabbos for a jew is like the sign on a store front. As long as a jew keeps shabbos even though he lets everything else go he is still a jew and might come back someday.

I wonder if nowadays, when everything is external a jew's sign is actually his clothes?
I have to admit this doesn't really sit well with me. Externals shouldn't mean so much.
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grace413




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Dec 23 2015, 4:06 am
There must be a misunderstanding here somewhere. Can't believe anybody would say levush is more important than shmirat Shabbat.
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Mevater




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Dec 23 2015, 10:40 am
grace413 wrote:
There must be a misunderstanding here somewhere. Can't believe anybody would say levush is more important than shmirat Shabbat.


Anyone know how to locate this Shiur on Jroot archives? It was R Y Mizrachis shiur from last night. Id love to hear it again.
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laykee




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Dec 23 2015, 11:25 am
Deep wrote:
I find this hard to believe. My husband has often told me that wherever he travels, Satmar shuls are the most welcoming and warm places he has davened in. Beneath the Chassidic zealotry, they are an incredibly generous and compassionate community that will open their hearts and pockets for another yid.


That might be true, but they won't allow someone who doesn't wear their 'livush' to lead the davening. Welcoming is great, but they won't consider an outsider as part of their yiddishe community. So ye, unfortunately livush trumps all.
Anecdotally, I know of a father who told his son " I don't care if you keep shabbos or not, but if you stop wearing your bekeshe on shabbos or put on jeans you are dead to me". Seriously? Sadly too much emphasis on chitzoniyus.
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Maya




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Dec 23 2015, 1:41 pm
He just says radical inflammatory things, like just to get attention. I wouldn't pay any mind to or be concerned with anything he has to say. He's the religious Trump.

That being said, I have definitely heard the sentiment expressed, that what someone does in their own home, like mechael shabbos, is not as important as what he looks like outside. As long as you dress chassidish, do whatever you want. It's because chassidish culture is based on looks and peer pressure.


Last edited by Maya on Wed, Dec 23 2015, 1:47 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Mevater




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Dec 23 2015, 1:46 pm
Maya wrote:
He just says radical inflammatory things, like just to get attention. I wouldn't pay any mind to or be concerned with anything he has to say. He's the religious Trump.

I like a lot of what he has to say but I was wondering about that because I was having a hard time visualizing a Rosh Yeshiva saying that keeping one's Chassidishe levush is more important than keeping Shabbos.

Im wondering why R' Mizrachi was asked to speak in Belz to begin with.

Im still hoping for an Israeli Belzer Imamother to speak up and summarize what was said at the Shiur and how the R"Y responded.
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anotherima




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Dec 23 2015, 1:59 pm
Isn't it loshon horah for Rabbi Mizrachi to say that about the belzer Rebbe? He must have not meant that.
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Mevater




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Dec 23 2015, 5:13 pm
anotherima wrote:
Isn't it loshon horah for Rabbi Mizrachi to say that about the belzer Rebbe? He must have not meant that.


I believe R' Mizrachi said it was a Belzer Rosh Yeshiva, not the Rebbe.

Why would it be Lashon Hara if this is their "derech", that the Lvush is above all?

Can any Israeli or Belzer Imamothers clarify?
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Maya




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Dec 23 2015, 5:20 pm
Perhaps try posting in the Chassidish forum.
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Seas




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Dec 23 2015, 5:48 pm
It's hard to say what's 'more important' without a clear definition. How does level of importance matter practically?

Anyway as an interesting food for thought I'll write what my DH heard from his Yerushalmi mashgiach in yeshiva a number of years ago (this makes me feel ancient...):
During the time of the establishment of the State of Israel the vast majority of Yerushalmi families had children who were semi or fully OTD. I still remember some bochurim, who are now fathers of famous talmidei chachomim, driving round on motorbikes with a gun sticking out of the shirt pocket and a girl sitting behind with her arms wrapped round them.
In later years some went OTD completely and some returned. As a general rule, with only few exceptions, those who'd kept the levush came back and those who'd thrown off the exterior trappings remained completely frei.
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laykee




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Dec 23 2015, 9:28 pm
Seas wrote:
As a general rule, with only few exceptions, those who'd kept the levush came back and those who'd thrown off the exterior trappings remained completely frei.

Yes perhaps it's the other way round. I am not sure the livush kept them in, perhaps they never totally left?
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