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Your reaction to Keiravtuni Convention - Yoeli Lebowit
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Maya




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Dec 29 2015, 2:18 pm
sourstix wrote:
maya dont say having an otd child isnt the worst thing. maybe not in your eyes, clearly for some pp here it is.

I know those frum-at-all-costs people. I will say that they are wrong, and their priorities are skewed.
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Lady Bug




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Dec 29 2015, 2:34 pm
Maya wrote:
I know those frum-at-all-costs people. I will say that they are wrong, and their priorities are skewed.


I think sourstix is right. To those frum-at-all-costs people, an OTD child is the most horrific experience. You can argue that their pain is self-inflicted by their skewed values, and that is sad, but it doesn't minimize their level of pain.

Either way, comparing tragedies and pain and weighing which one is worse is so childish. Different people experience the same situation differently. What should be weighed, though, is the pain experienced by the parent-in-custody versus the pain experienced by the child without a parent.
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Bsimcha




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Dec 29 2015, 9:00 pm
An OTD relative ( whom I'm very close to) sent this to me, I was horrified beyond belief.

http://www.mishpacha.com/Brows.....-Game
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pause




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Dec 29 2015, 9:02 pm
Bsimcha wrote:
An OTD relative ( whom I'm very close to) sent this to me, I was horrified beyond belief.

http://www.mishpacha.com/Brows.....-Game
I would take what he writes with a grain of salt.
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Bsimcha




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Dec 29 2015, 9:23 pm
pause wrote:
I would take what he writes with a grain of salt.


I don't read Mishpacha, don't know this guy
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Lady Bug




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Dec 29 2015, 11:29 pm
Bsimcha wrote:
An OTD relative ( whom I'm very close to) sent this to me, I was horrified beyond belief.

http://www.mishpacha.com/Brows.....-Game


Which part horrifieed you? That this level of unhealthiness exists? It just validates the children for running away
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Seas




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Dec 29 2015, 11:59 pm
Slightly off-topic (only slightly), but the pain Yoely speaks of is a reason for men to never ever give a get until they have an iron-clad, easily enforceable, custody agreement allowing them regular contact.
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Heyaaa




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Dec 30 2015, 2:39 am
Bsimcha wrote:
An OTD relative ( whom I'm very close to) sent this to me, I was horrified beyond belief.

http://www.mishpacha.com/Brows.....-Game


Just bec a person has kids doesn't make them stable.

I have a relative who always says, ' you need a license for everything. You need a license to drive a car, you need a license to own a dog. You don't need a license to have a child.'

Therefore we are left with nut jobs who have kids. Anyone who throws their 15-16 year old daughter out of the home and doesn't place them in a safe environment, I'm sorry to say, is missing some screws.
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grace413




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Dec 30 2015, 4:11 am
Seas wrote:
Slightly off-topic (only slightly), but the pain Yoely speaks of is a reason for men to never ever give a get until they have an iron-clad, easily enforceable, custody agreement allowing them regular contact.


No. Just no.
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grace413




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Dec 30 2015, 4:18 am
Bsimcha wrote:
An OTD relative ( whom I'm very close to) sent this to me, I was horrified beyond belief.

http://www.mishpacha.com/Brows.....-Game


Part of being a grown-up and a parent is learning not to act on every feeling. I believe that parents can feel shame and horror and sadness at their children rejecting their way of life. So they can go and scream and cry and be sad for a while and then they can do the adult thing and realize that you don't throw your teen out on the street for any reason. If you absolutely cannot have them at home you find a residential placement, a friend, a relative, a boarding school, some kind of acceptable solution.

Throwing a teen into the street is just not acceptable. Treating them in a way that makes flee home is also not acceptable.

Hashem has entrusted us with these neshamot to raise them as best we can until they can function on their own. Hashem didn't send them to be always be little nachas machines for our enjoyment.

I've hear the Rav Steinman story about fathers wishing their OTD kids dead and sorry, I just refuse to believe it.
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Sadie




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Dec 30 2015, 4:28 am
Seas wrote:
Slightly off-topic (only slightly), but the pain Yoely speaks of is a reason for men to never ever give a get until they have an iron-clad, easily enforceable, custody agreement allowing them regular contact.


Ugh, no.

What about abusers who shouldn't have access to their kids. This system ensures that they have a way to blackmail for access.

What about women who are coerced to give up access to their kids in exchange for being released from a bad marriage.

No no no, no!
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FranticFrummie




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Dec 30 2015, 4:59 am
Bsimcha wrote:
An OTD relative ( whom I'm very close to) sent this to me, I was horrified beyond belief.

http://www.mishpacha.com/Brows.....-Game


I believe this, because my parents threw me out of the house when I was 16. I lived on the streets for quite a while, and when I called to tell them that I had found a safe place to live with a friend, my mom threatened to call the police on him. He was so scared, that he told me that he couldn't risk taking me in, because I was a minor.

I think that parents who put their own pride and reputation ahead of the welfare of their children are just one very short step away from honor killing. I don't think that I'm exaggerating this at all, I actually think I cannot state this strongly enough.

Unless you have literally lived on the streets as a young, previously sheltered girl, you have NO IDEA what that is like. Crying
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tweek




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Dec 30 2015, 9:01 am
FranticFrummie wrote:
I believe this, because my parents threw me out of the house when I was 16. I lived on the streets for quite a while, and when I called to tell them that I had found a safe place to live with a friend, my mom threatened to call the police on him. He was so scared, that he told me that he couldn't risk taking me in, because I was a minor.

I think that parents who put their own pride and reputation ahead of the welfare of their children are just one very short step away from honor killing. I don't think that I'm exaggerating this at all, I actually think I cannot state this strongly enough.

Unless you have literally lived on the streets as a young, previously sheltered girl, you have NO IDEA what that is like. Crying


Hugging you wasn't enough! The more I read about your life, the more in awe I am of you!!!
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youngishbear




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Dec 30 2015, 9:31 am
Seas wrote:
Slightly off-topic (only slightly), but the pain Yoely speaks of is a reason for men to never ever give a get until they have an iron-clad, easily enforceable, custody agreement allowing them regular contact.


Ugh

No

Way
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Bsimcha




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Dec 30 2015, 10:13 am
FranticFrummie wrote:
I believe this, because my parents threw me out of the house when I was 16. I lived on the streets for quite a while, and when I called to tell them that I had found a safe place to live with a friend, my mom threatened to call the police on him. He was so scared, that he told me that he couldn't risk taking me in, because I was a minor.

I think that parents who put their own pride and reputation ahead of the welfare of their children are just one very short step away from honor killing. I don't think that I'm exaggerating this at all, I actually think I cannot state this strongly enough.

Unless you have literally lived on the streets as a young, previously sheltered girl, you have NO IDEA what that is like. Crying


Horribe!
How did you survive?
I can't even imagine!
Hugs to you Crying
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Seas




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Dec 30 2015, 9:22 pm
Sadie wrote:
Ugh, no.

What about abusers who shouldn't have access to their kids. This system ensures that they have a way to blackmail for access.

What about women who are coerced to give up access to their kids in exchange for being released from a bad marriage.

No no no, no!


What about them? What does this have to do with what I wrote?

Losing one's child (and for children to lose their father) is the most terrible pain there is, so a man would have to be crazy to give up his bargaining chip before absolutely protecting himself from that pain.



As to the OTD debate, would the naysayers also preclude any parent from going to jail because that would hurt the children? Or would they agree that if people do really bad things they go to jail even though innocents get hurt? What about teens, would you agree with the law that an 18 year old who say is a child molester should be jailed, even though they wouldn't be with their parents? I think everyone would understand that as hurtful as it is it's the teen's own actions that caused the jail sentece and he has no one else to blame but himself.

When a child goes OTD and parents give an ultimatum either keep shabbos etc. or leave home, it's not the parents fault if the teen decides to take the second option.
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youngishbear




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Dec 30 2015, 9:24 pm
Seas wrote:
What about them? What does this have to do with what I wrote?

Losing one's child (and for children to lose their father) is the most terrible pain there is, so a man would have to be crazy to give up his bargaining chip before absolutely protecting himself from that pain.



As to the OTD debate, would the naysayers also preclude any parent from going to jail because that would hurt the children? Or would they agree that if people do really bad things they go to jail even though innocents get hurt? What about teens, would you agree with the law that an 18 year old who say is a child molester should be jailed, even though they wouldn't be with their parents? I think everyone would understand that as hurtful as it is it's the teen's own actions that caused the jail sentece and he has no one else to blame but himself.

When a child goes OTD and parents give an ultimatum either keep shabbos etc. or leave home, it's not the parents fault if the teen decides to take the second option.


There are so many things in this post that make me want to tear all my fur out that I don't know where to begin.
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Maya




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Dec 30 2015, 9:29 pm
Seas wrote:

As to the OTD debate, would the naysayers also preclude any parent from going to jail because that would hurt the children? Or would they agree that if people do really bad things they go to jail even though innocents get hurt? What about teens, would you agree with the law that an 18 year old who say is a child molester should be jailed, even though they wouldn't be with their parents? I think everyone would understand that as hurtful as it is it's the teen's own actions that caused the jail sentece and he has no one else to blame but himself.

When a child goes OTD and parents give an ultimatum either keep shabbos etc. or leave home, it's not the parents fault if the teen decides to take the second option.

You just put OTD people in the same category as criminals and child molesters. WT* is wrong with you?
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youngishbear




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Dec 30 2015, 9:31 pm
Maya wrote:
You just put OTD people in the same category as criminals and child molesters. WT* is wrong with you?


For starters...

AND parents who give their children ultimatums where one option puts them in harm's way are darn well responsible for what happens afterwards. A choice between emotional death by supressing their pain at home and physical death by sleeping on the street is pure cruelty.
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Seas




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Dec 30 2015, 9:38 pm
Maya wrote:
You just put OTD people in the same category as criminals and child molesters. WT* is wrong with you?


I didn't. I pointed out that you do accept sometimes parents and children have to be separated due to the wrong choices of either. The fact that you don't agree this should happen when say a parent goes OTD just means you don't appreciate how bad that is. Perhaps you should work on your torah values to accept that going OTD is a terrible thing and where there is a danger of a child being influenced unfortunately the parent has to be kept away.
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